is this ok accuracy?

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dadof6

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Being a novice reloader I'm not sure what to expect. Hoping somebody could give me some feedback. the following numbers are from a bench rested position shooting 50' Using Rainier plated 230 bullets and5.4 grains of Bullseye or HP38.

Two guns: FNP 45 USG and Sig p220 ST

Group Sizes-
FNP: HP38= 3.75" ave, BE= 5" ave
Sig: HP38 = 3.25 ave, BE=3.8" ave

Ave Velocities-

FNP: HP38=739, BE = 820
Sig: HP38=740, BE = 815

Used CCi Mag pistol and Winchester Lg Primers. the CCI's gave higher velocities in all cases.


reloading on a Lee Classic Turret press, weigh every 5th to 10th load (inspite of that, had two squib loads, and one really low velocity load).

I keep reading about guys shooting 2" groups off hand at 25 yrds and am wondering what they use/how they do that?

So is this in the ball park for these two pistols bench rested (bag and my hands, not a ransom rest or anything)?

thanks for your input.
 
IMHO it all depends on the person and the gun. I've seen people shoot revolvers like I could only hope to do. I can't shoot my 1911s near as well as others, but I can shoot better than most with with my FNP 45 USG, BHP, PM9, etc. I think it's the design of the trigger and sight picture that makes or breaks my ability.

I often wish I could have a 1911 with a "standard" trigger, i.e. BHP, CZ 75, etc.
 
Most service and police grade 4-5 inch autos will shoot at least 3-4 " groups from a sand bag rest at 25 yrds. Some will do better and some a lot worse, it depends on the guns and also the shooter.

There are some expert bulls eye shooters that can put all 5 rounds in the 3" or less black circle off hand all day, but for the average shooter if you can consistantly put all 5-15 shots in about a 6-8 inch circle off hand at 25 yrds. then you are shooting very good. Most cops and other combat shooters can't even do that good as they are used to always firing at large man size or tombstone targets.
 
I have not shot either of the guns you used, but just this afternoon I sent this group down range from my SA GI 1911. I was standing 30' from the target, freehand. I haven't shot any groups at 25yds for a while, when I shoot that far it's usually at bottles, or clays.
070411shoot.jpg


When in doubt, shoot more and remember, perfect practice makes perfect.
 
I agree with the other gents. You are getting acceptable accuracy out of yourself and your guns if you do not intend to use them as match target loads. For all other uses they are OK. But then you should know that shot groups are not measured from outside to outside of the two holes farthest apart. They are measured from center to center. So make sure you're not cheating yourself.

When you hit your sweetheart load, the group size at the distance you are shooting will get down around two inches except for an occasional outstanding gun and load, then it will get even smaller. Here is a photo of a 15 yard bench rest group from a new, factory-stock CZ 85B that measures one inch, including the flyer. It's my sweetheart gun and the load was 124 grain Gold Dot +P 9mm. I called the flyer, but I won't say what I called it.

czgroup002.gif

If I ever shoot in a bullseye match again, guess which gun and load I'll use?

JayPee
 
That level of accuracy is unacceptable, especially from the Sig which should do 1" at that distance.

You should not be using CCI magnum primers. Magnum primers are too strong and usually ruin a target load. Get some CCI 300's.

Drop the Bullseye powder charge to 5 grains and do over. Then drop it to 4.5 grains and do over.
 
(inspite of that, had two squib loads, and one really low velocity load).

May I suggest you concern yourself with safety and function before you start trying to improve accuracy. If your machine does not accomodate one of the mechanical powder checkers (I don't think the Lee will.) you simply MUST look in each and every case before seating a bullet to be sure it contains one and only one powder charge.
 
If you're getting squib loads, then you have problems far beyond accuracy. I'd recommend that you reevaluate your loading process, especially where the powder charging is concerned.

Regardless, I'd consider that level of accuracy unacceptable. Any modern service pistol should be able to hold 2" or better at 50 feet from a sandbag rest.

-C
 
Yes, I too would be much more concerned about the reloading. As to accuracy, some of the guys shoot one handed 50 yards and hit 3" groups. My 25 yard shooting will average about 4.5" groups with my 1911 45 or 10mm: off hand. I think we both will keep shooting and having fun.
 
I use the Lee turret press with the "auto disk" powder drop system and it works very well.
Your groups are "ok" depending on your level of skill. I'm sure the guns are capable of shooting much tighter groups than your seeing. Keep at it, you'll narrow it down......;)
Don't be afraid to try some LRN or LSWC for target work. Bullseye shooters spend a lot of time working up loads that give them the tightest groups possible. None of them are shooting jacketed ammo.
 
If I were you I would stop using the two powders you are using and switch to 700x or power pistol.
they are better powders for a auto, The powders you are using are much better used in a revolver load.
I would also stop using cci primmers. Stick with the winchester. I found the best to be S&W primmers, Have fun trying to find them anymore.
Try some 200gr swc. Then try some 185gr swc. The bullet you are using is good for bang bang, but not the best you could use for tighter groups.
Plated bullets are made for shooting and do not hold up good for small groups,IMHO
You must have a crono, I say start out fast(950 to 1000fps) then slow down slowly, you will find the sweet spot. then the fun starts.
I have been reloading for some time now and you could be doing better.
The sig can and will leave one jaged hole at the distance you are shooting.
Good luck and happy shooting.
 
It would be better if you were shooting offhand and got them sizes. I stress on myself to hit 3" maximum at 10yrds offhand, usually I can punch out the bullzeye on my dirty bird targets though. At 25 yards I can hit copy paper consistently. I can't shoot a pistol off of a sandbag for some reason. My bullets always drift high and left when I try, but I'm not that interested in shooting from sandbags with it anyways.

I would say, examine your technique first and make sure something that you are doing isn't throwing you "off". Maybe some guys here could point out a benchrest technique for shooting off bags?
 
thats perfectly good, lol dont pay attention to the magazine articles and internet warriors which make it seem like its the norm to shoot .0000001442inch groups from 25 yards with subcompact polymer .40 cals hahaha
 
I was kind of surprized by the squibs too. I take every 5th or so load out, check it with an electronic scale and then pour it back into the case. using the Lee auto prime with the charge bar. I seemed to get within .1grn most of the time.

I did try lighter loads of hp38 off hand during a previous trip. at 10 yrds, i got about 2-3" groups. But, the FNP did not like the lighter loads. I got several FTE's. the heavy slide and recoil spring need more umph to clear the case. Unfortunately I did not have my chrono with me that time.

I agree that the guns should do better off a rest. I am an amateur but I think it should be better.

What I want to do is find a load that will duplicate factory HD loads so that what I practice with is the same. I want good accuracy and the same feel as what I might use in case of emergency.
 
I would agree that 5.4 gr of bullseye is awfully hot with 230 gr. bullets. I normally would run 230s with 4gr. of bulls eye and it runs fine in my 45s. Mark
 
Ditto on the 5.4 gns of BE being just a little hot behind a 230 grainer.

Dadofmany, both your FNP and SIG are very tightly made guns, and should be capable of 1 1/2" groups or better at 25 yards.

I strongly disagree with the statement that you start with the hot loads and work down to find the sweet spot. There are a couple of reasons for this, first safety for you and the gun, second is barrel leading.

As you work up, you may begin to see pressure signs, flattened primers, etc. Stop. Don't be too proud to pull bullets if the load is getting too hot. I bulged a Browning Hi-Power barrel last year because I didn't stop when pressure signs appeared. I should have stopped immediately, the price of a new Browning barrel is about $600. I was lucky not to have blown something up. These were actually powder puff loads using about 3 grains of powder, but heavy bullets. Recoil and report were low, but the primers got flat flat flat. I shoulda stopped, expensive lesson learned.

Second reason for working up, is because at some point your loads will start to smear lead down the barrel as the load increases if you're shooting lead. Now, this isn't as bad as it seems, amazingly, if the pistol likes the load, it will shoot sub 2" groups with a horribly leadded barrel. But I have found there is a catch to this, only higher power loads that have enough pressure to substantially obturate the bullet will be accurate in a leadded barrel, lower pressure loads will spray all over the target with a leadded bore. This is why you would start a set with a clean barrel, then work up. Going the other way would obscure some potentially very accurate loads because of bore leadding by starting hot load first. And if you're shooting lead, hot loads will smear the bore.

Below is a picture showing a load my 1911 likes, 4.35 grains Titegroup behind a 200 cast lead RNFP. Upper left target is shot with unleadded barrel, then after shooting hotter rounds that did leave lead in the bore, I went back to the sweet load of 4.35, that is the target on the upper right, boolits sprayed all over hell. I could see the barrel had some leadding so I fired a few jacketed bullets to clear the barrel, then shot two more targets with the 4.35 load, and groups went right back into the black. Those are the two lower targets. That was an eye opener. The 4.35 runs at the upper end of not leadding the bore a bit, another .3 grains and the bore begins to streak. These targets are all fired at 25 yards.

Gordy is right, you will find the "sweet spot" by working up a load, but work up, low to high. Start with a load considerably lighter than listed in a loading table, say the max load is 5.4 grains of 700X behind a 200 grain SWC. Start at something like 3.8, then work up in .2 grain increments to the 5.4 grains max. I load 5 rounds of each powder weight, so the box of ammo would contain something like 3.8, 4.0. 4.2, 4,4, 4.6, 4.8, 5.0, 5.2, and 5.4 grains of powder. You could even include a 3.6 set so the box will have a full 50 rounds to shoot. Anyway, start at the low end with a clean barrel, shooting each 5 round set, log your load info on the target, as well as velocities, and notes about function and barrel leading. Some of the lower loads may not function the pistol, no biggy. Sometimes the pistol will be very accurate at low loadings, sometimes not. However, when you find the sweet spot, groups will go from like 3" down to an inch or so. You'll know when you're there.

PICT0034a.jpg

What I have found about autoloaders is that they are more finicky about thier sweet spot than revolvers. In addition to obturation and interior ballistics, they seem to prefer certain recoil impulse levels. What i mean by this is that they like a certain amount of recoil impulse to make all their parts clang around consistantly shot to shot. I have found powders of similar burning rates gave similar accuracy results at similar velocities. The amount of powder to achieve this didn't matter, but similar recoil impulses seemed to bang the working parts in harmony or someting, and the groups got small.

That's a lot of info, I've been shooting blind for a lot of years, and am just now beginning to pay attention to things. Finding an accurate load and understanding it is quite a task indeed.

Some powders shoot more accurately than others. I have only gotten mediocre accuracy from my can of WW 231, never bad, never great. However, Titegroup has been an excellent performer for me in .45 ACP, midrange 9mm, and .38 spec. Bullseye has also worked very well for me in both .38 and .45 ACP. I used to shoot a lot of 700X in .45's as well, I have found some good loads with it too.

If you would like more information, on powders I have tried, boolits, loadings, etc, etc, feel free to e-mail me. I've been working on loads a lot lately.

Here's a picture of my lil darling, Springer mil-spec and her targets.
PICT0033a.jpg
 
Accuracy results from sum of consistent reloading processes. For some reason you got squib rounds, so I would first investigate the cause of inconsistent or no powder drop before addressing shot group accuracy.

It's been my experience that the adjustable charge bar would drop inconsistent charges of W231/HP-38 and I also experienced very light charges for typical pistol load data of 4-5 grains. Inconsistent powder charges will lead to inconsistent shot groups. If you want to rule out charge related accuracy issues, you can load a batch of test rounds with hand weighed powder charges or use the Pro Auto Disk (if you have one) and see if you get more consistent shot groups.

As to Rainier plated bullets, they are typically sized same as jacketed bullet diameter (.451" and not .452") and I find myself having to use jacketed load data to reliably cycle the slide in my pistols.

I am one of those that prefer to test loads off hand but will start out at 7 yards. Once I confirm tight shot groups (typically 1" for most semi-autos), I will move out to 10 and 15 yards. Most factory semi-auto pistols (non-1911) with accurate match grade reloads will produce 2" shot groups at 10 yards and 3" at 15 yards average off hand for me. If I get particularly accurate pistol/barrel/load combination, I'll continue my accuracy testing to 20 and 25 yards. If you are causing the shot groups to deviate, it will start to show at 7 yards and get worse at 10/15/20/25+ yards.

Both Bullseye and W231 should produce accurate loads and you didn't mention whether you performed the full work up from starting charge to max load data. Usually accuracy improves as you approach the max load data, but not always and sometimes the accuracy either flatten or get worse with some powder/bullet combination. Only way to tell is to conduct the full load work up.

My experience with Sig 220 has been above average accuracy with better than 2" shot groups at 15 yards.

I load 230 gr RN plated bullets at 1.25"-1.26" OAL. The longer the OAL that will reliably feed/chamber in your pistol, sooner the bearing surface will engage the rifling for more consistent chamber pressures.

Keep us posted with another range test results.
 
Wow - I really appreciate all the feedback. i did in fact try some HP38 at lite loading - 4.0 up to 5.0. Off hand at 10yrds I got around 2-3" groups at the 4.4-4.8 load. However, I had several FTE's with the FNP. Seems very sensitive to load and limp wristing.

Some of my higher loads did give me small sub-groups. By that I mean the first 5-6 shots out of a 10 shot string grouped into 1 hole more or less, but then they opened up for the last few. Not sure if that is due to heat in the barrel or my fatigue/flinching???

Rainier says to load their plated bullets at 90% of what a jacketed bullet requires. the max was 5.4grns. Just wanted to see what I got at that level. the max velocity was around 830 fps or so. Primers all looked ok. no flattening. The Rainiers are 'very soft' and so I guess, don't quite develop the pressure that a real jacketed bullet does. I was seating to abut 1.262" that seemed to drop into both barrels well and had good headspace, though I did not measure it.


So many variables, so little time! I guess being a novice I don't know what is acceptable, but I like and am looking for groupings like i see above.
 
The most accurate load I have found for my FNP 45 is using Berry's 230 gr. RN DS (round nose / double struck) bullets over 6.8 grs. of Power Pistol...........each one goes where the last one went. And Remington LP primers.
 
FMJ RN bullets with exposed lead base will expand/obturate better to the barrel and produce more consistent chamber pressures, which results in better accuracy over JHP/plated bullets with solid base in my experience. I normally need to push JHP bullets high to near max load data for best accuracy due to this reason for (.451" bullet diameter).

Unlike Rainier plated bullets that are sized like jacketed bullets at .451", Berry's bullets are sized larger comparable to lead bullet diameter (.452") to produce more consistent chamber pressures, especially in factory barrels that are oversized (.452"+). If you are still getting accuracy issues, I would slug the barrel to determine the groove diameter and check whether the barrel is sized at .451" or larger.

If the barrel is oversized, you may try adjusting powder charge, use different powder and/or go with larger diameter bullet to improve accuracy.
 
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Plated bullet factoid...

In looking around for a recipie specifically for rainier 230 plated bullets, I found several posts that indicated that you should not crimp the bullet, or just the most minimal crimp just enough to take the bell out of the case mouth. I guess bullets are too soft for a full taper crimp?

Anybody have any experience with this? True?
 
dadof6 said:
...Some of my higher loads did give me small sub-groups. By that I mean the first 5-6 shots out of a 10 shot string grouped into 1 hole more or less, but then they opened up for the last few. Not sure if that is due to heat in the barrel or my fatigue/flinching???

If you're a newer shooter without many hundreds or thousands of fairly frequently shot rounds under your belt you may have just hit the nail on the head.

Even shooting from rest bags requires a very focused state of mind for pulling the trigger while totally ignoring, and in fact not even thinking about, the oncoming recoil.

Even as a guy with old guy eyes and nerves on a decent day I can match or beat by a third your stated group sizes. On the other hand it sounds like your offhand results at 10 yards is at least as good as my best. It sounds like you may not be a rest bag sort of shooter. Like freestyle shooting using rest bags brings with it some specialty skills to avoid using the bags result in confusion more than it helps.

Having said that the HP38 results indicate that your gun with THOSE bullets does better with lighter loads/reduced velocity. Perhaps try some other bullets?
 
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