Is this True

[Werewolf]

Was out at the club range the other day and while there a black powder competition was going on.

One of the guys (about 75 yrs old at least) had quite a collection of black powder rifles - most of which looked pretty authentic.

We got to talking and I asked him about bullets - specifically the differences between spherical shaped and conical shaped bullets. He provided a lot of information including the best twist rates depending on the caliber and whether one was firing a sphere or conical bullet. I couldn't question anything he said (and most of it sounded right) because I know less than jack about 1700's/1800's rifles.

The one thing he did say that I thought was maybe at best an exageration was when I asked him if folks switched from the spherical bullet to the conical because the conical was more accurate. Well - he poo-pooed that notion in about a half a heart beat and flat out said that the spherical bullets were accurate out to 1000 yards. I didn't question his veracity on that point out loud but in my head I kept thinking - no way.

So - can a blackpowder rifle of good quality, with the proper twist rate for the caliber and a good load accurately shoot a spherical bullet out to 1000 yards?

Sounds a bit far fetched to me but then like I said I know jack about BP shooting and the guns that do it.

 

[Jim Watson]

I doubt it.
The current leading thousand yard muzzleloader is the Pedersoli Gibbs which fires a 500 grain bullet from an 18 or 20 inch twist barrel. Just a .45-70 without the brass.
It is an accurate repro of one of the leading contenders in long range shooting in the 1870s, including Whitworth, Rigby, and Metford. They all shot about the same loads, just with different rifling plans... but the same twist.

I shoot BPCR and a 400 grain .45-70 is a short range proposition, not trusted beyond 200 metres, maybe 300 on a calm day.

 

[4v50 Gary]

1K is kinda stretching it for most 19th Cent. conicals

Tests conducted during the Civil War by the Confederates in the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of Tennessee found that most minie ball (about .578) guns were accurate out to 500 yards. That is, in good hands, almost all guns were certain to hit a man at that distance. Beyond 500 yards, the British Enfield was found superior and could strike a man at 1,000. It wouldn't happen all the time, but it did and that's why it was the choice of weapons for the Confederate sharpshooter (the shorter 33" barrel and not the 39" infantry model). The Whitworth fired a bullet of the same weight but was much longer (think ballistic coefficient) and smaller in diameter (.451). At 800 yards it was absolutely deadly and could strike a 32 feet long by 2 feet tall target at 1,880 yards.

BTW, when the Union Army on Morris Island tested available rifles (Enfield not included), they found the Springfield Rifle musket (M1861 or M1863) was the most accurate out to 500 yards.

All this will be covered in Chapter 6 of my book.

 

[arcticap]

Not Fiction

I'll admit, I don't have all of the facts, but never the less I'll relate this. A couple of years ago I saw a repeat of a "Ripley's Believe It Or Not" that featured the world record holder of BPCR shooting who reenacted his amazing world record feat with an original BPCR rifle over 100 years old. He was shooting handloads at a group of large metal targets across a canyon. I don't know the range, but it can be verified whether it was 1000 yards or not, I don't think that matters. He was shooting something like a 45-90 or 45-110 or something, and they showed what the view looked like through his sights and his target was a speck! He had to aim a number of feet above the target and of course he hit it after 1 warm up shot more than once. I think there was even a balloon he broke in front of the target. This was a relatively recent filming and only shows that amazing feats are still performed by those few who can and do pefect their skill.

 

[4v50 Gary]

BTW, check out our Bedtime Stories or Sharpshooter Tale thread for some long range shooting including Billy Dixon's amazing shot.

 

[Third_Rail]

Wall guns, 1" bore with a 6 foot barrel, were supposed to be accurate with RB at 800 yards..... FWIW, anyway!

 

[Jim K]

There was some rather remarkable shooting done with muzzle loaders at long range, even up to 1000 yards. But that was using conical bullets, usually paper patched, with long bearing surfaces, and loaded using a false muzzle. I simply do not believe that a round ball could be accurate at that range, or even reach that range, simply because a round ball is a poor aerodynamic shape and cannot be gyroscopically stabilized.

I think either there was a misunderstanding or the elderly gentleman (I am a mere child of 72 and always respect my elders) was mistaken.

Jim

 

[Iggy]

800 yards is about max range for a round ball, and gravity probably has something to do with it at that distance....

 

[Werewolf]

Thanks for the replies guys. I was pretty sure that the spherical (round ball) bullets couldn't be accurate out to 1000 yards and that the switch was made to conical for accuracy reasons.

But it was pretty clear when the old gentleman spoke that he was indeed referring to spherical shaped bullets. Just a sea story I guess (navy guys know all about sea stories).

 

[happy old sailor]

for starters, the barrel would have to be the best of the best. that is unlikely. then the ball would need to be of carefully concocted alloy and a very careful casting to be perfectly round and wobble free. several other things that would not be generaly available. with every thing perfect, a skilled rifleman might, Might, make the shot. i must therefore relegate this into sea story status, as in hardly likely. the film crew that had the shooting across the canyon failed to ask him about his components/preparation for this event. then, if round balls are that good, why is it not available in factory loads. i think we all know why. someone was blowing smoke from more than his barrel.

 

[BigG]

Well, if you were in an airplane flying at 3,000' AGL and you fired straight down...