Is today's Ar15 the same as the west's "six-shooter"?

[BigShep85]

Read this article today that included way too many "alledgedly" and just as many "Variants of the assaults rifle".

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_...nd-hated-gun-in-america?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1

All the rediculousness of it aside the last sentence got me to thinking. The article referred to the AR15 as having "a level of cultural currency rivaling the six-shooter that “Won the West” and Dirty Harry’s .44 Magnum".

It got me to wondering which of todays weapons could be considered the todays "six-shooter".

 

[19-3Ben]

I would argue the AR15 has a better comparison with the old lever action rifles. Those were high-capacity for their day, shot rapidly with moderate recoil etc... And, whereas pistols have always been secondary weapons, a rifle/carbine has been and likely will always be the gun that really does the heavy lifting.
I'd consider the Glock/M&P/XD and other of their ilk to be more like the old wheelguns of the west.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, "six-shooter" covers so much ground that it's kind of hard to say what's analogous, exactly.

Probably the most likely thing would be just the Glock. Just as only some of the six-shooters in the American west of the Victorian era were model 1873 Colts, only some of the modern polymer-framed automatics of the beginning of the 21st century are Glocks. But most folks don't know or care about the differences and a blocky black handgun is a culturally understood equivalent item, regardless of which make and model, just like the "six-shooter" was.

The same could largely be said about the AR-15, of course.

The lever-rifle might be somewhat equivalent to the AR-15, except that I don't believe they were ever nearly so popular and common in the "old west" era as they later became (even in remembrance). There were probably more surplussed civil war percussion rifles, hammered double-barrel or single-shot shotguns, and other sorts of long-guns that "won the west" than there were various Henrys and Winchesters and Marlins in common use. But just like with the Peacemaker, when re-viewed through the lens of Hollywood a generation later, the picture changed a bit.

 

[HoosierQ]

I would think that the AR15 is "today's Winchester", "today's Kentucky Rifle", "today's Brown Bess" more so that the six-shooter. With that said, I certainly agree that the AR-15 is a quintessentially American, ubiquitous, common long arm, deployed by Americans for a wide variety of utilitarian tasks...up to and including it's use by our military as their primary small arm.

 

[19-3Ben]

The lever-rifle might be somewhat equivalent to the AR-15, except that I don't believe they were ever nearly so popular and common in the "old west" era as they later became (even in remembrance). There were probably more surplussed civil war percussion rifles, hammered double-barrel or single-shot shotguns, and other sorts of long-guns that "won the west" than there were various Henrys and Winchesters and Marlins in common use. But just like with the Peacemaker, when re-viewed through the lens of Hollywood a generation later, the picture changed a bit.

Very very true.

 

[hardluk1]

the glock could todays "6 shooter".

 

[87hurricane]

Agreed. If anything should be considered today's six shooter it's probably the Glock. I'm not a fan myself, but they are very popular and widespread.

 

[BSA1]

Leave it to the media to not know the difference between a rifle and a handgun.

THE gun that universally identifies America throughout the world is Colt SAA (and clones). The single action revolver is arguably the gun that is unique to the American experience.
Glock isn't a American firearm.

In regards to the AR maybe it identifies America but nothing like the Winchester lever action rifle or the way the modern AK does with Russia and the Commies.

 

[Sam1911]

Leave it to the media to not know the difference between a rifle and a handgun.

I didn't get the idea that they don't know the difference between a rifle and a handgun. How did you gather that? They said it had the same "level of cultural currency." That's not the same thing as "it's also a handgun."

THE gun that universally identifies America throughout the world is Colt SAA (and clones). The single action revolver is arguably the gun that is unique to the American experience.

Well, maybe. I don't know for sure. It would depend on who you ask and how old they are and how many American western movies they've watched, probably.

Some would say the 1911 identifies America. For a time maybe it did. Maybe it was the Pennsylvania or Kentucky long rifle.

Now, I think more folks see Americans (soldiers and civilians alike) with the little black rifle than with any other firearm. So who knows?

Glock isn't a American firearm.

Ha ha ha! Ain't it true! But, there are more of them here than anywhere else in the world and they're now the most visible and recognizable handgun in the world and we've got them by the dump truck load so why not, right? I'll bet that if you asked 1,000 non-gunny people scattered around the world where the Glock is from, 900 at least would say America. If more than a handful knew it came from Austria I'd be shocked.

In regards to the AR maybe it identifies America but nothing like the Winchester lever action rifle or the way the modern AK does with Russia and the Commies.

Yeah, I just can't agree. The M-16/AR has been so distinctive and so iconic of America and its troops and its shooting public for so very long now that I really don't think anything surpasses it. It is the longest-serving US infantry weapon. Instantly identifiable with our forces and our country for the last 50 years.

Iconic and distinctive, just like and probably to 99% the same degree as the Kalashnikov is/was for the eastern bloc.

 

[Tirod]

If we are talking the American West as it really was, then the AR15 is very much the modern version of the Winchester lever rifle - and the dozens of others that copied it.

Not the Colt handgun. While quite a few were carried, anyone who needed to reach out more than 50 feet had a rifle, and the lever rifle, the "gun that could shoot all week," the gun Lincoln pressed his Ordnance Commander to adopt, was that rifle.

The General in charge of weapons, however, refused his Commander's request, as it would use too much ammunition to no affect. That took another 100 years to correct - with the adoption of the M16. It was designed specifically to put more bullets into the air flying.

It doesn't mean that a hunter, precision shooter, or berm buster has that as a goal. What gets consistently ignored by the press is that military weapons have other features that make them a better rifle than the civilian guns.

Just in comparing the AR15 to that old lever gun, you get 1) easy disassembly for cleaning, 2) better accuracy 3) weather proofness 4) cheap government subsidized ammo 5) a wide variety of makers, few proprietary limitations, lots of accessories 6) extreme durability.

If you were going to spike hunt Colorado and hike the mountains for 6 weeks, rain or shine, would you rather take a $1,200 AR15, or a $1,200 Winchester lever gun?

I can tell you the resale on the AR would be a lot higher. The lever gun would be a banged up corroded, cracked mess without extraordinary precautions. The AR would look a lot more new for the exact same treatment, and still shoot straighter.

Nonetheless, comparing the lever gun to it's predecessors in the day, it was mechanically and functionally the better rifle, even with the extra complication. It shot more bullets faster.

If I were to conjure a modern equivalent to the old six shooter, I'd lean toward the 1911 compacts. The Glock is much the same as a Luger then - something very different and out of the mainstream of conventional architecture. It served well, but not as an iconic Old West firearm. Attend a Texas barbecue and the 1911 fills that role today.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

I read the piece. The conclusion that the AR has the cultural quality/popularity that a sixgun was one of the only 'take-aways' I took from the otherwise canned dribble NBC was releasing. They really should have gone with lever rifle had they wanted to be closer to apples-to apples, and oranges-to-oranges--Glock to sixgun would have made for a better analogy. I like the AR better now than twenty years back, but still don't have one in my collection.

 

[tarosean]

If you were going to spike hunt Colorado and hike the mountains for 6 weeks, rain or shine, would you rather take a $1,200 AR15, or a $1,200 Winchester lever gun?

You wouldn't be taking a 556/223 for CO big game.

We already know AR's are extremely popular with litterally hundreds of companies making guns, parts and or accessories. The six shooter was just about the only choice back then so I don't see how that particular aspect correlates.

 

[Sam1911]

If we are talking the American West as it really was, then the AR15 is very much the modern version of the Winchester lever rifle - and the dozens of others that copied it.

Wait, were there dozens of copies? I can think of the original Spencer rifle, Henry's version, the Winchesters, and Marlins, and then the very different Savage and Browning and Ruger designs that came quite a bit later. But for "the west" how many types of lever action rifle do you know of?

Not the Colt handgun. While quite a few were carried, anyone who needed to reach out more than 50 feet had a rifle, and the lever rifle, the "gun that could shoot all week," the gun Lincoln pressed his Ordnance Commander to adopt, was that rifle.

Well, that was the Spencer, and then there was Henry's and Winchester's improvements to the idea. But how many were really out there in the hands of the ranchers and farmers and settlers of "the west?" I've heard some very contradictory accounts about this and the consensus seems to be that lever rifles were a bit of a new-fangled and expensive extravagance that never really were prevalent enough to "win the west" -- until they reappeared on the silver screen and "won the west" in Hollywood. (And then later again when they inveted SASS! ) That percussion muzzle-loaders, and Sharps rifles and various single-shots and fowling pieces were all variously common, but that the fancy new lever rifles were much less so during those days. (Sort of like saying that the SCAR is the rifle that "won the early 21st century." Neat new design, but expensive and not that common.) But if you have good dirt on this I'd love to hear it.

If I were to conjure a modern equivalent to the old six shooter, I'd lean toward the 1911 compacts.

Why would that be? What is it about the relatively uncommon compact 1911s that would make them analogous to the iconic 1873 Colt?

The Glock is much the same as a Luger then - something very different and out of the mainstream of conventional architecture.

HUH? Out of the mainstream? It's about the most common handgun in common use EVERYWHERE. How can that be not mainstream?

It served well, but not as an iconic Old West firearm. Attend a Texas barbecue and the 1911 fills that role today.

I'd have to say a Texas barbecue isn't really the epitome of "cultural currency" the country over. 97% of American's couldn't define a "barbecue gun" if you promised them a Benny to do so, but EVERYONE knows what a Glock is.

 

[LeontheProfessional]

Am AR15 was never used in SANDY HOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[230RN]

I don't care, as long as they all stay "in common use."

 

[Sam1911]

Leon,

Am AR15 was never used in SANDY HOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We need to quit repeating this. It isn't true and makes us look looney.

The CT Attorney General's report is out and makes it very clear what actually happened.

The following weapons were recovered in the course of this investigation: (1) a Bushmaster Model XM15-E2S semi-automatic rifle, found in the same classroom as the shooter’s body. All of the 5.56 mm shell casings from the school that were tested were found to have been fired from this rifle.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Sandy_Hook_Final_Report.pdf

 

[Tommygunn]

Wait, were there dozens of copies? I can think of the original Spencer rifle, Henry's version, the Winchesters, and Marlins, and then the very different Savage and Browning and Ruger designs that came quite a bit later. But for "the west" how many types of lever action rifle do you know of?

Burgess, Kennedy, Colt Lightning (though actually a pump action it was a repeater) , Remington Lee, another type of repeater. Plus several with names I've forgotten.
Winchester is well remembered because the company still survives, if only in name; Oliver Winchester was a genius publicist & salesman though he himself knew little of rifle-making, he depended upon people like B. Tyler Henry & Nelson King, and later John M. Browning, for his designs. John Marlin was often frustrated by Winchester's brilliance in publicity since some of his early lever actions were stronger, better rifles than the toggle-link Winnies but Marlin just wasn't the salesman Winchester was.
There were a handful of off brand unknown makers of lever action rifles (and handguns as well) whose names have disappeared in history as their companies failed, but they were out there back then.
Marlin survived because he did make good rifles, and Winchester started making good strong rifles that competed well with Marlin;s when he started buying Browning designs.
Others were so-so, and none had the marketing IQ of Winchester -- or Marlin, for that matter.

 

[primalmu]

Am I the only one that keeps reeding "cultural currency" and wondering why people keep insisting on comparing the AR to other guns in terms of function? The claim has NOTHING TO DO WITH FUNCTION, and I would argue that to the general public a revolver is FAR more identifiable as being "Old West" and "American" than any period rifle. Heck, based on the concept of "cultural currency" a dang HORSE would fit the bill better than any rifle you all mention.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, now hold on, I was asking about lever-actions because that's what was identified as the iconic gun of the west. So the Lightning and Rem-Lee don't count!

Thanks, though! Now any idea of the numbers sold of any? I know that's a hard one, but I'm just curious.

And, of course, that leads into the question of what really was the "American West" in terms of years. Many of the best known lever-action rifles didn't appear until nearly the last years of the 19th century, but of course how "won" the west really was by then might be up for debate.

 

[BigShep85]

Production numbers?

This article says that the gun mos t related to the phrase "The gun that one the west" was the 1873 repeating rifle. It says this was due in part to the 720,000+ production total in circulation. So this may give an idea and then it would have to be used in relationto the population during the time.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=270

One difference I feel is the ability of the AR15 to be "pieced" together. There are so many options that can be used, you can literally take any brand BCG basically and put it in any rifle. this can't be said for the lever action BUT we are in no way comparing the lever action to the AR only their relevance and use during the time period when they were popular I guess.

Not to mention how easy it is to get parts and guns to individuals who want them. Can you imagine how many lever actions would have been produce if the indians could have walked to the nearest trading post and ordered one for every tribe member? They would have been like all of us last December when EVERYBODY decided walk to thier nearest gun dealer (online or brick and mortar) and order EVERY AR part availabel.
They would not have been able to produce enough. So I would probably agree with others that the Lever action was the west's version of the AR.

 

[LeontheProfessional]

Leon,

We need to quit repeating this. It isn't true and makes us look looney.

The CT Attorney General's report is out and makes it very clear what actually happened.


http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Sandy_Hook_Final_Report.pdf

I did not know that. Thought he only used handguns.

 

[jmr40]

Many of the best known lever-action rifles didn't appear until nearly the last years of the 19th century, but of course how "won" the west really was by then might be up for debate.
__________________

Lever guns were not all that popular in the old west. As said reliable guns didn't appear until the last days of the 1800's. In fact bolt action rifles in the far more modern 7X57 beat the 30-30 into production by 2 years.

Most of the legendary exploits of lever guns was just in the Western movies made popular starting in the 1920's. I believe they would have died off after WW-1 had it not been for Hollywood.

But whether based upon fact or fiction the lever action rifle has been the iconic American rifle from about 1920-2000. I'd say the AR rifle is the iconic American rifle of the 21st century.

 

[Tommygunn]

Lever guns were not all that popular in the old west. As said reliable guns didn't appear until the last days of the 1800's. In fact bolt action rifles in the far more modern 7X57 beat the 30-30 into production by 2 years.

Most of the legendary exploits of lever guns was just in the Western movies made popular starting in the 1920's. I believe they would have died off after WW-1 had it not been for Hollywood.

But whether based upon fact or fiction the lever action rifle has been the iconic American rifle from about 1920-2000. I'd say the AR rifle is the iconic American rifle of the 21st century.

Actually lever actions were pretty popular -- they had their niche.
They were not popular with hunters, especially those after big game because the early ones couldn't handle the BIG thumpers like the .45-70 and that style of cartridge. If you wanted to hunt buffalo you wanted a Sharp's dropping block or Remington rolling block in one of those big cartridges.
Lever actions were considered by many to be "tyro" guns -- for amateurs. But they also developed a following for self defense use and as a kind of utility rifle ; much like today's AR rifles.
That isn't to say people didn't make good use of many other rifles that were around like flintlocks, flintlocks converted to caplock, and straight out caplocks, and even break action single shots.
In other words, they used what they had, which may have been their daddy's or grandpa's old gun.
And don't forget that lever actions were not sold in JUST the west, they became popular enough in the east and elsewhere, too.
Oliver Winchester was too good of a saleman to ignore any part of America.
The advent of Hollywood and its penchant for westerns probably helped maintain the lever action to a degree. The fact that there were a lot of model 1892 Winchesters around at that time meant that many of early Hollywood movies had them using that model long before they actually arrived. Chuck Connors' iconic series "The Rifleman" was, IIRC, set in post Civil War America but even then Hollywood was still making use of those stores of 1892s, so Chuck wound up with one instead of the 1866 model which may have been more historically accurate, or an 1873, which could also have been believable.

Sometimes one does note better use of historically accurate guns. In the mid 1960s ABC-TV tried to make George Armstrong Custer a TV hero; Wayne Maunder assumed the role and for one year those following the show were treated to Remington Trapdoors and Spencer Carbines as well as the occasional 1873 Winchester in the hands of a civilian or Indian. Firearms accuracy does not make a TV show popular, however, and people didn't take to well to Custer presented as a hero, so the show was shot down after only one year. Wayne Maunder's fictionalized hero didn't even make it to the Little Bighorn.

 

[BSA1]

If you were going to spike hunt Colorado and hike the mountains for 6 weeks, rain or shine, would you rather take a $1,200 AR15, or a $1,200 Winchester lever gun?

I can tell you the resale on the AR would be a lot higher. The lever gun would be a banged up corroded, cracked mess without extraordinary precautions. The AR would look a lot more new for the exact same treatment, and still shoot straighter.

A lever action rifle would be a banged up corroded, cracked mess after only 6 weeks of use in the field? How in the world did those lever guns make it across the frontier and survive years and years of use on the ranch with very little maintenance?

I take it from your comment about resale value of the AR you would want to dump it after seeing how well the lever action rifle outperforms it in real world big game hunting.

Lever guns were not all that popular in the old west. As said reliable guns didn't appear until the last days of the 1800's. In fact bolt action rifles in the far more modern 7X57 beat the 30-30 into production by 2 years.

Really??? You might want to brush up on your history starting with the Civil War. The Spencer was much sought after but the most desired rifle was “that da**ed Yankee rifle you load on Sunday and shoot all week” the Henry, followed by The Improved Henry in 1866 and the famous Winchester 73. The lever action rifle used cutting edge ammunition technology. The design has withstood the test of time so well it successfully made the transition from blackpowder to smokeless powder and after 150 years it is still in production.

 

[BSA1]

And, of course, that leads into the question of what really was the "American West" in terms of years. Many of the best known lever-action rifles didn't appear until nearly the last years of the 19th century, but of course how "won" the west really was by then might be up for debate.

Well the American West was “won” in three distinct stages;

The first was the explorers, trappers and mountain men prior to the Civil War. They trailblazed trails through unknown territory, encountered and identified various Indian tribes while living rough lives. The rifle of choice during this era was a real Hawken in 50 or 54 caliber.

The second stage were the buffalo hunters who used heavy caliber single shot blackpowder rifles (45-70 and up through 50’s) to clear the herds off the plains for settlers and to remove the primary source of food for Indians.

I propose the third stage were the settlers who started farms and built towns. For them the most useful firearms would have been the shotgun. Suitable for hunting small game, birds, slugs for close range big game and self defense. It was a great law enforcement tool also. Imagine the stage coach guard with his double barrel sawed off shotgun. Even Doc Holiday used one in the Shoot-Out at OK Corral.

But the lever action rifle served a very important role on the ranch, in the scabbard on a cowboy’s horse and in the woods for big game hunting. Today it is still a excellent deer rifle, excellent for hunting hogs and as the late Jeff Cooper said the 30-30 is a ideal home defense gun.