Is white box "Win. 7.62" exactly like NATO 7.62?

[Ignition Override]

Having read that the authentic NATO brass was always thicker than comm. .308, along with some other differences (length), I'm puzzled that this commercial ammo is labeled as such.

Also read that If the brass is identical to NATO ammo, one grain less power is recommended due to slightly higher case pressure.
My reloading is only to save money while plinking, and powder loads are always at the minimum on the charts.

Hoping that the brass will be even more durable than comm. brass.
The head stamp is "WCC 10" and there is a tiny encircled cross.
The total length is 2.783" with a fmj.

 

[fragout]

If your referring to Winchester USA Q3130, then the answer is yes.

It is 147gr FMJ,(boxer primers) and their version of M80 ball.

The circled cross is a NATO headstamp, and is military brass.

I am brand new at reloading, but if what your looking at is in fact Q3130, then that stuff is military brass.

Hopefully some more experienced re loaders will chime in with additional info about reloading military brass.

Are you planning to use your own reloaded ammo for use through semiautomatic rifles or bolt action rifles?

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/24_100_279/products_id/802


11B

 

[Ignition Override]

Thanks fragout.
It is Q 3130. Is that a generic civilian code or just a Winchester designation for duplicated NATO specs?
It is mostly an academic question, because the price at a Memphis gun store is similar to on-line 7.62 NATO plus shipping (using "Ammoseek").

I've already used a bit of both Win 7.62 and .308 in my Spanish FR8, and have read hours on-line about .308 vs 7.62. A second common problem is that many people still confuse the large-ring (Mauser) FR8 with the small-ring FR7.

Many people also have not read about the correction factor converting "cup" to civilian Saami psi (58,000 NATO vs. 62,000 comm. .308).
Just trying to alleviate their worries.....

 

[jonnyc]

There are no worries, 7.62x51 and .308 are the same round.

And what does this mean?
"along with some other differences (length)"

 

[SentinelStrategic]

Just keep in mind that proper military ammunition will have a crimped primer pocket. All 7.62x51mm ammunition from the factory should have it, just like 5.56mm ammo typically will. When it comes time to reload, you need to swage the primer pocket to remove the crimp. I personally use a Dillon Super Swage 600, but there are several options available by other companies like RCBS and the lot. Just something to be mindful of when you go to reload. Didn't know if you were aware of it or not.

 

[fragout]

Thanks fragout.
It is Q 3130. Is that a generic civilian code or just a Winchester designation for duplicated NATO specs?
================================================================================================================================================
It is a Winchester designation.

Q3131 is their designation for 5.56mm for example.

Not sure if they still manufacture this, but they also had a "Q load" for 30 Carbine back in the early/mid 90's.

Same with 38spl and 357 magnum, but not sure if they still make it under the WIN USA "Q load" designation

Back to the subject at hand......
Win Q3130 will have the crimped primer pocket, as the link I provided will show, and as Sentinel Strategic mentioned.

The brass itself is also thicker in some areas compared to commercial 308 brass, and Q3130 will also utilize hard primers for use in military type rifles designed with free floating firing pins.

Be advised that WIN has another "white-box" type of 308 out there as well.
"USA3081" on the box instead of Q3130.

Both are 147gr FMJ, but the difference is that the USA3081 uses commercial brass, vs the military Q3130 brass.

To date, I have not had any USA3081, and am uncertain if this stuff uses crimped military primers or not.

I would not hesitate to shoot either through my M14S/M1A's, but the differences may matter to you if your plan is to re-load using this brass.

11B

 

[bigedp51]

Ignition Override

The .308/7.62 ammunition below is "NOT" military grade or does it conform to NATO specifications. I bought the Winchester ammunition below to be the first ammunition to test shoot in my Ishapore 2A1 7.62 Enfield rifle. The reason for this is I wanted to see how much these commercial cases would stretch in the web area when fired in a rifle with "military" headspace.

The Winchester ammunition below was fired in this Enfield bolt action that had its headspace at the same "FIELD" headspace for the M14 rifle. (.010 head clearance or airspace between the bolt face and rear of the case) I tossed the fired cases in the trash because of stretching in the web area and I did not think these cases could be reloaded more than twice without separating.

Bottom line, these cases are not as thick in the base web area as military cases and the primers are not crimped. They did work in a non SAAMI chamber and I wouldn't hesitate to fire them in any military .308/7.62 rifle.

"BUT" military cases would not stretch in the web area as these commercial cases did and military cases are better suited in larger diameter, longer headspaced rifles.



As I said, military cartridge cases are better suited for rifles with long, long, longer headspace.

 

[bergmen]

If your referring to Winchester USA Q3130, then the answer is yes.

It is 147gr FMJ,(boxer primers) and their version of M80 ball.

The circled cross is a NATO headstamp, and is military brass.

I am brand new at reloading, but if what your looking at is in fact Q3130, then that stuff is military brass.

Hopefully some more experienced re loaders will chime in with additional info about reloading military brass.

Are you planning to use your own reloaded ammo for use through semiautomatic rifles or bolt action rifles?

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/24_100_279/products_id/802

11B

This is why I love being on this forum. Fragout, that link is for an amazing price on 7.62 X 51 Nato ammo ($11.79 per 20 rounds). Cabelas wants $18.99 per 20 and they don't even say that it is Q3130 (I did buy 1,200 rounds from them a year or so ago and all was Q3130). New M1A Scout Squad.

I'm a gonna stock up...

Tanks for the link!

Dan

 

[Kliegl]

"There are no worries, 7.62x51 and .308 are the same round."

Not true. There are dimensional and power differences.

 

[jonnyc]

Sorry Kliegl, you're wrong, both technically and historically. Do some research. The only dimensional difference is the internal wall (Nato webs being thicker to withstand MG extraction), and any power differences between any .308 and 7.62 rounds are the same as you would find between the products of any ammunition manufacturer.
You will find that there are differences between commercial .308 CHAMBERS and military 7.62 CHAMBERS, but the rounds are the same and completely interchangeable.

 

[Ignition Override]

SentinelStrategic:
You might have described only actual military 7.62x51. But just in case any other .308/NATO 7.62 novices see this...

Having begun reloading my first .308 (Am. Eagle) and "7.62 mm" only weeks ago, I've noticed nothing different about the primer pockets compared to 1,000 reloads of commercial Prvi Partizan .303, single-stage.

The Lee deprimer pin easily punches out the used Win. "7.62 mm" primers, and after cleaning each pocket by hand for a moment with the same tiny cylindrical 'pocket scraper' (four seconds?), using the Lee "Auto-Prime" feels exactly as it does with the .303 cases.

My only previous reloading has been a heap of Prvi P. .303 "British", neck-sizing only, and about 50 cases of Lake City 30-06 M2 Ball.
Of all three calibers, only my military M2 Ball requires the primer pocket to be swaged.

jonnyc:
My Spanish FR8 ("7.62") Mauser carbine has had limited use, and the barrel and sights -as you guys might know- are the same as a Spanish CETME.

Although it failed whichever "No Go" gauge used by my gun smith, which is very common, the ".308 Win. Saami" (Clymer) Field Gauge" which I have indicates very good results. With the Field in the chamber, the bolt barely rotates at all. The action is the original (all-matching) large ring 8mm Mauser.

bigedp51: Thanks, that is very informative.
It might be best to use Ammoseek and order actual NATO 7.62 to have even more reloads. I'm up to about nine reloads with the first of the Win 7.62mm and commercial .308 cases: no neck cracks, bulges or carbon leaks, no snags with the internal bottom paper clip test.

 

[velocette]

The proper way to be certain if you have military / nato brass is to weigh at least 10 cases, average their weight and then compare that average to commercial brass. (NOTE! do NOT use Federal brass for comparison as it runs just as heavy as NATO / GI brass.)
My testing of 308 brass showed the LC brass averaged 179.4 gr. Federal 182.1, Winchester 168.1,
RP 171.6, Hornady, 159.8, WCC-NATO 175.
YMMV
Roger