Ithaca back in business - in Ohio

[Coronach]

"Police shotgun" is also not a growth market. I think they'd do better coming out with a 1911 and an AR. Those markets are crowded, but one always seems to sell and the other is a growth one if they can give competitive deals to LE agencies. That's less of a comment on the viability of the latter two than it is a comment on the viability of the former. Remington and Mossberg have what's left of LE shotgun sales sewn up, and that market is shrinking due to more and more agencies moving to patrol rifles in lieu of shotguns. I think you'd be nuts to take a new company into LE shotgun sales against those two juggernauts.

That said, I think they'd be even better sticking to shotties until they are re-established. One place that seems to be ripe is inexpensive sxs and o/u guns. If they can make a gun that is priced like a Huglu or Baikal, solidly built and has better fit and finish and ergos, they should be good sellers. Right now the choice seems to be (to me at least), paying a crazy amount for a polished gun or paying a reasonable amount for something austere. One would think they could provide something in between and make a living, especially if they have modern CNC machinery (which would keep base costs down and allow you to spend more money on hand fitting and finishing).

Mike

 

[ArmedBear]

Coronach or anyone else who knows...

If a Wingmaster -- American made, top quality, walnut stocked and nicely polished -- is under $500 and a nice second barrel for it is under $200, is there any reason why the new Ithaca, with modern machinery and engineering know-how, couldn't reproduce the field grade Ithaca SxS for $750 retail?

What a nice-balancing gun!

What about giving Browning's BT-99 a run for their money by resurrecting single barrel Ithaca trap guns -- still in demand and still used in competion after 80 years -- for under $1000, American-made? It's hard to even GET a BT; they sell as fast as they come into the country, and they're $1350 and up.

Ithaca could make high-end versions, too, but nice guns with about the wood quality, fit and finish of the Wingmaster would be the bread and butter. That's what Ithaca used to do, with grades 1-5.

And Over and Unders, too. A good American O/U with trap versions, SC versions, and hunting versions, starting under $1000 would really make a splash.

Even if you CAN compete with Mossberg and Remington for the low-end pump market, how much can you really make on a $250 gun anyway? But it should be easy to sell a good gun that people like, for less than Beretta and Browning.

 

[MCgunner]

I own a mossberg 500, have owned a wingmaster and have shot an Ithaca M37 featherweight in 16 gauge. It was in my youth, an uncle's gun. I hunted ducks with it (well before steel shot) and it was about the smoothest pump I've ever used. I loved the thing. Whether I'd pay big money for one is another thing. I don't need it, have an autochunker and the Mossy, but I sure would LIKE to have an Ithaca and would be nice if it were a 16, though I think I'd either get the 20 or yet another 12 due to the fact that 16 is about dead and you pay out the nose for ammo and you can't get anything in steel to my knowledge in the gauge.

 

[ArmedBear]

16 is back and readily available from places like Cabela's.

Remington even makes steel shotshells in 16, available from Cabela's for the same price as 12 or 20.

Upland loads are relatively easy to find. Remington is producing new Wingmasters and 1100s in 16 Gauge, too.

16 Gauge is not exactly the ammo you'll find the most of, but it's often seen at my local Wal-Mart, even.

What seems to be really coming back, though, is 28.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

If they can make a gun that is priced like a Huglu or Baikal, solidly built and has better fit and finish and ergos, they should be good sellers.

I agree with Mike. Something like a Savage 311 would be nice, and should sell well. The old Ithaca SXS's were nice enough guns (can't believe I turned one down for $150, quite a few years ago).

 

[kudu]

I agree with others, a nice trap gun, a decent SxS, preferrably in sub gauges which seem to be selling fast, and possibly an O/U maybe that interchanges with the trap gun. This is where they could get into the customer's pockets. I would dearly love to have a decent SxS that was under $1000 that wasn't a Huglu. Now I like my Huglu, but I would buy American if it was as nice and within 10% of the cost of an import.

 

[MCgunner]

16 is back and readily available from places like Cabela's.

Remington even makes steel shotshells in 16, available from Cabela's for the same price as 12 or 20.

Upland loads are relatively easy to find. Remington is producing new Wingmasters and 1100s in 16 Gauge, too.

16 Gauge is not exactly the ammo you'll find the most of, but it's often seen at my local Wal-Mart, even.

What seems to be really coming back, though, is 28.

Wow, good to know! I always really liked the 16 and still have an old single barrel in 16. Mmmm, maybe, just maybe....

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I've owned a coulpe of 37s over the last 30 years or so. Still have one of them I bought about 25 years ago. It's the only pump shotgun I'd ever bother with. Got to love the John Browning designed guns.

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

• Tactical pump gun - with ghostring sights, magazine extension, a 18.5" bbl and Piccatinny rails
• Shorter version of the above - including a modular "system" like the Remington MCS
• Auto & Burgler - with specific instructions on their site describing how to apply for federal stamps to legally own

Count me as a new customer if/when this shotgun is produced. The legendary ambidextrous Model 37 with bottom loading/ejection would be fantastic with weatherproof stock, premium-quality steel, and modern defensive sights. Build it and they will come!

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[Coronach]

I dunno. I see that more as a niche than as a growth market. Will they sell some? Yep. Would they sell enough to justify the cost of setup when they are small and really need to grow? I dunno. I think they'd be better off running with SXS and O/U guns, provided they can make a quality gun at the right price point.

Coronach or anyone else who knows...

If a Wingmaster -- American made, top quality, walnut stocked and nicely polished -- is under $500 and a nice second barrel for it is under $200, is there any reason why the new Ithaca, with modern machinery and engineering know-how, couldn't reproduce the field grade Ithaca SxS for $750 retail?

What a nice-balancing gun!

Be aware, I know next to nothing about how much it costs to make guns, or what sorts of things they can reasonably do...I only know that:

A. Low end pump guns and police shotguns are bad deals. Rem and Moss have the market locked up, and LE agencies are not buying shotguns like they used to do. If they do decide to tackle this market, they better have their ducks in a row, being able to make something significantly better for the sam price, or something similar for a significantly less.

B. There is a real gap in the trap/skeet/clay/field market, with austere guns at one end, fancypants guns at the other, and a real area for growth in between. Especially, a place for a nice, well-built, American made gun at a modest price.

The question with B is whether or not it is profitable to make such a thing...the guns are expensive because they require hand-fitting, and the imported guns are built using cheaper labor. Can it be done? I dunno. If it can be done, though, they'll sell. An Ithaca field grade SXS for $750 would be a must-buy for me.

Mike

 

[ArmedBear]

The real question is most likely, can hand fitting be replaced by high-quality CNC machining?

I'd guess that the answer is yes. If I can buy bags of parts from multiple vendors, screw them all together in the morning on the kitchen table, and go shoot my new AR-15 in the afternoon, then it would sure seem to me that a field-grade SxS could be built so that it would fit together. In theory, anyway, SxS actions are easier to fit than O/U guns.

Can enough guns be sold to recoup the investment in machinery, though? Perhaps THAT is the real question.

Side question to ponder re Winchester's Select guns... They're pretty nice, IMO, at a pretty decent price. And Belgian labor costs can hardly be cheap.

 

[huntsman]

If a Wingmaster -- American made, top quality, walnut stocked and nicely polished -- is under $500 and a nice second barrel for it is under $200, is there any reason why the new Ithaca, with modern machinery and engineering know-how, couldn't reproduce the field grade Ithaca SxS for $750 retail?

you'll never see an american made SXS for $750. for that matter ruger has told us you'll probilly never see one below $1800. I'd say the biggest cost on a double is barrel regulation,maybe simpler with the mono-block but I believe there's still a bit of hand work involved. I believe Ruger has set the bar on cost of both US made sxs and o/u to get the prices cheaper you'll need real competion and the market to suport it.The only way you''ll get that is through GOV regulation (total ban on pumps/autos).

 

[ArmedBear]

ruger has told us you'll probilly never see one below $1800

Are you sure Ruger didn't just say "you'll probably never see one?"

 

[Coronach]

you'll never see an american made SXS for $750. for that matter ruger has told us you'll probilly never see one below $1800. I'd say the biggest cost on a double is barrel regulation,maybe simpler with the mono-block but I believe there's still a bit of hand work involved. I believe Ruger has set the bar on cost of both US made sxs and o/u to get the prices cheaper you'll need real competion and the market to suport it.The only way you''ll get that is through GOV regulation (total ban on pumps/autos).

I'd say that the market is there, though how large that market might be is certainly unclear. Judging by how well Baikal, Huglu, etc are selling it could hardly be said to require government intervention to create it.

The point about cost of manufacturing, however, is potentially correct. If Ithaca, with presumably new CNC tooling, could find a way to hit the price point and maintain quality, I think they'd do fine. The question is whether or not that is possible. The mere fact that one company says it can't be done is not necessarily an indication that it is true (especially when saying so also shores up their own market position. Ahem.).

Mike

 

[ArmedBear]

The government regulation to drive double shotgun sales already exists in the form of 3-shot limits for hunting.

And competitive shotgun sports have embraced break-open shotguns almost universally, with some semiautos doing well too.

A lot of the 20th century trapshooting records were set or broken by some really good shooters with 870 or Model 12 pumps. I doubt we'll see that again, despite the fact that both of these pumps can make excellent trap guns. The good shooters just aren't using them.

 

[ArmedBear]

The mere fact that one company says it can't be done is not necessarily an indication that it is true (especially when saying so also shores up their own market position. Ahem.).

LOL

And when the company is Ruger, selling a $2000 side-by-side that is, well, sort of "plain" then trying to get people to spend thousands more to have it gussied up. I guess it's not bad looking for a Ruger, though.

And really, do skilled Italians and Belgians work so cheaply, especially at current exchange rates of 1.2 Euros to the dollar? This will change, probably, as Europe spirals downward, but for now, European goods are expensive. And the EU has lots of environmental regulations, worker safety regulations, vacation time, etc., etc. It's not the third world. And you can get your fill of nice Winchesters and various Italian guns for under 2 grand.

 

[Slater]

I'm sure the Chinese will make you all the SxS's you want for about $1.50 each. Engraving will run you another .25

 

[ArmedBear]

I'm thinking that, if the Europeans can do it, Americans can, too.

I question whether Ruger's forte (investment casting in steel and excellent guns that are reasonably priced and built like tanks) transfers well to side-by-side shotguns. I own a few Rugers and will be getting more. And their prices are highly competitive with price-point gunmakers like Taurus. I have yet to see a Ruger handgun that I didn't consider a better deal -- and more trustworthy over the long haul -- than a similar Taurus, all things considered.

So I'm not just generally dissing Ruger (except that IMAO their lever actions are stylistic abortions -- I know, they're meant for the Australian market, but still).

The problem could be that what makes a company good at building reasonable, bulletproof pistols and revolvers, popular semiauto carbines, and reliable hunting rifles in every caliber imaginable might not be what you need if you want to build a good SxS at a good price.

And we might never know, because of their self-fulfilling prophecy. At $2000 and up, there won't be a big market, so there won't be a lot of domestic competition, there won't be much production volume, there won't be any manufacturing innovation, etc.

 

[huntsman]

And really, do skilled Italians and Belgians work so cheaply, especially at current exchange rates of 1.2 Euros to the dollar? This will change, probably, as Europe spirals downward, but for now, European goods are expensive.

the secret to the lower grade italian and spanish guns are the small speciality shops.If you ever compare the old american/arms or armsport or other cheaper italian o/u you'll see same stocks,tubes,frames.they have small shops that specialize on certain parts instead of many different companies making the same parts.

The government regulation to drive double shotgun sales already exists in the form of 3-shot limits for hunting.

that's a good point I had forgot ohio just did this a few years ago.

bottom line unless things really change in the manufacturing sector and the habits of the gun buying public I doubt we'll see higher volume production sxs like in the past.
for what it worth: I think the gold label was to Bill Ruger what the model 21 was to Olin,It was said that winchester lost money on every production made 21. I think ruger was going to put out the gold label, reguardless of the manufacturing costs.We will see how much longer it will last or stay under $2000.

 

[BloodyRAzorBlades]

Thats awesome, i like their 37 shotgun, i just wish they could go back to making the m1911 like the ones they did in the 40's that would be nice

 

[Wags]

The government regulation to drive double shotgun sales already exists in the form of 3-shot limits for hunting.

I believe in here in Ohio a 3 shot limit (plugged shotgun) is only neccessary for deer and waterfowl (ducks/goose) season? Check your state laws before you pull the plug.

 

[huntsman]

I believe in here in Ohio a 3 shot limit (plugged shotgun) is only neccessary for deer and waterfowl (ducks/goose) season? Check your state laws before you pull the plug.

yep and they were the only reasons for more than 3 shots.

 

[ArmedBear]

A lot of states (mine included) have made 3-shot rules for everything, even turkey.

And our dove hunting can be a combat zone; I think that the rationale was that experienced hunters would kill birds too fast with more rounds, and inexperienced hunters are dangerous enough with 3.

As far as modern machinery being able to produce a decent SxS, here's something to consider.

I bought a new .30-06 Howa bolt action, sold by Weatherby in a walnut stock. I believe that is a Japanese barreled action in an American wood stock. I put on some American Warne mounts and QD rings that I mail-ordered, and mounted a Burris Fullfield II scope made in the Philippines, mail-ordered from somewhere else. After screwing all this stuff together (total price of all of it around $700), I did a quick bore-sighting (put it on some sandbags and took the bolt out and looked through the bore and the scope). I didn't even have to move the scope knobs.

I stuck some American Remington ammo in it (this is the 4th company and third country involved in this rifle) and it was already sighted-in well enough to hunt deer at 100 yards, with no adjustment at all. A few clicks, and I was shooting in the 10 ring at 100 yards. When I tried a different bullet weight, it made more difference than the sighting in I needed to do.

So, I can spend $700 total on a rifle and scope from three companies and three countries, and put ammo in it from a fourth company, and have it shoot just over 1 MOA and hit within a few inches of center at 100 yards with no adjustment and no tools but the wrench that came with the Warnes. This rifle has a nice blue finish and a nice Weatherby-style walnut stock with deep cut checkering, a rosewood cap and a good recoil pad.

And you don't think that modern manufacturing methods, tight tolerances and creative engineering could make a basic functional hunting double gun for $750 in America because the shotgun barrels couldn't be regulated without extensive hand fitting?

HORSECRAP!

If you build something the right way, to tight tolerances, you don't have to fit much, if anything. Why would shotguns be the only thing in the world that can't be built this way?

 

[huntsman]

And you don't think that modern manufacturing methods, tight tolerances and creative engineering could make a basic functional hunting double gun for $750 in America because the shotgun barrels couldn't be regulated without extensive hand fitting?

HORSECRAP!

If you build something the right way, to tight tolerances, you don't have to fit much, if anything. Why would shotguns be the only thing in the world that can't be built this way?

I don't think machining tight tolerances are the issue, it's attaching two tubes together either by brazing or soidered. Keeping the bores set at the proper angle to intersect at 50 yards (I think)and keeping chambers and bores concentric and other things I don't even know of.I've always been amazed they built them so well back in the day,must of had workers who really new their jobs.
Sorry for the thread drift, let's all hope Ithaca will propser and maybe bring back a new NID for less than a thou.

 

[ArmedBear]

I don't think machining tight tolerances are the issue, it's attaching two tubes together either by brazing or soidered. Keeping the bores set at the proper angle to intersect at 50 yards (I think)and keeping chambers and bores concentric and other things I don't even know of.I've always been amazed they built them so well back in the day,must of had workers who really new their jobs.

My dad was one of those people. He didn't work on guns, but he was a skilled tool and die maker before the machines did a lot of work for you. He can still do it, and braze and solder, too. He got into plastics and engineering. He last big project before retirement was pop-out eyeglass lenses. He was the first to make them come out ready-to-use, no grinding necessary. This couldn't be done, until one day, with a lot of ingenuity and investment, it could. Now it's relatively common.

Barrels can be held by machine more easily than by hand. Choice of materials and design are important. What's a big deal, really, is building the machine. THAT can be very expensive. But that's the point of tight tolerances. If you build the parts right, they just go together. If the rifle as an assembly of standardized parts can shoot within a few MOA with no adjustment, then the shotgun certainly can, too, especially if all the parts are made or selected by a single manufacturer.