CapnMac
Member
Ah, but, I'm presuming it is not an existing NFA registered item. It's a very fine point, admittedly.
Ithaca M6 registration?
- Thread starter saemetric
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The Glockodile
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Like a “ghost gun” of sorts?
dogtown tom
Member
Again, the Ithaca M6 is an NFA AOW.....whether registered or not.
If registered, it would transfer on a Form 4.
If not registered, its contraband. You can't Form 1 an existing contraband firearm.
By the above logic, it is legal to own a receiver with no serial number and a short barrel assembly with or without a serial number. They can’t be owned by the same person?
Can such a receiver alone be sold to another even though no serial number. The receiver has no barrels so the SBR or other AOW regulations shouldn’t apply. Obviously the barrel assembly can be sold separately. A single person cannot marrry the two pieces. True or false thinking here.
Can such a receiver alone be sold to another even though no serial number. The receiver has no barrels so the SBR or other AOW regulations shouldn’t apply. Obviously the barrel assembly can be sold separately. A single person cannot marrry the two pieces. True or false thinking here.
GaryNC
Member
Having lived in three (3) different states in the past 9-years, all I can say that laws in the three different states I have lived were different. I know that New Mexico makes sales of a firearm without a background check unlawful in New Mexico. In 2019, New Mexico passed a law that generally requires firearms sales to be subject to a background check. The law requires private sales to be processed through a licensed dealer who is required to conduct a background check on buyers under federal law.
dogtown tom
Member
..................................
I don't have a clue as to how you came to that conclusion.
It isn't a matter of logic, but federal law. And since 1968 federal law has required serial#'s on all firearms.
Barrels are not regulated by federal law.
Whether they have a serial# on them is up to the manufacturer.....such as Glock that put the serial# on frame, bbl and slide.
In regards to possessing an NFA firearm it depends. Please reread what I wrote above.
Already answered above.
1. While an SBR may be a Title I firearm if not in SBR configuration, no such exemption exists for AOW's.
2. If you think a the NFA "shouldn't apply" let ATF know.
3. The firearm the OP want to buy is an NFA firearm, nno matter if the bbl is attached or six feet away.
Not sure what you mean.
dogtown tom
Member
If a pre 1968 firearm has no serial#, the dealer records "No serial number" or "NSN" in his bound book and on the Form 4473.
I do it about a dozen times a year.
dogtown tom
Member
Again, barrels are not regulated.
You can buy it all with an ATF approved Form 4.
NO.
Again......it's the receiver of an AOW and requires a Form 4 for transfer. If in state it it doesn't require an FFL.
Thats the only way you're going to get it.
If it's not registered the seller is in violation of federal law right now.
dogtown tom
Member
By looking at it.
Do you think ATF doesn't know what an M6 receiver looks like?
They have an entire reference collection for keeping examples of nearly every firearm manufactured.......around 17,000 guns.
CapnMac
Member
Digging into the history of these, the Ithaca M6 dates to a 1952 DoD contracts issued by USAF.
No data I can find suggests these were ever offered for civilian sale, nor were meant to be with 355mm/13.9" barrels. So, they would not have been serialized for civilian sale.
Which appears to be what is "hanging up" OP. Yes, the barrel separate from the Receiver. And yes, the s/n is on the barrel group. But, the receiver is still a receiver. I'll flat out wager that the Ithaca receiver only fits its own barrel group; so, there's not finding a Mossberg 18" clone barrel unit and grafting it on.
So, Tom is right, this beastie is contraband, together or separate, no matter where the s/n is inscribed.
No data I can find suggests these were ever offered for civilian sale, nor were meant to be with 355mm/13.9" barrels. So, they would not have been serialized for civilian sale.
Which appears to be what is "hanging up" OP. Yes, the barrel separate from the Receiver. And yes, the s/n is on the barrel group. But, the receiver is still a receiver. I'll flat out wager that the Ithaca receiver only fits its own barrel group; so, there's not finding a Mossberg 18" clone barrel unit and grafting it on.
So, Tom is right, this beastie is contraband, together or separate, no matter where the s/n is inscribed.
Carl N. Brown
Member
When the Israeli Airforce decommissioned a few hundred fighters with 14 inch barreled AR-7s in their survival kits, Bricklee imported them and permanently affixed a 2 inch barrel extension for sale to the public as Title I (1968 GCA) rifles and not as Title II (1934 NFA) firearms.
Previously, when USAF decommissioned aircraft with 14 inched M4 survival rifles in their survival kits, the rifles were going to be sold as surplus until someone realized they were NFA items. Numrich Arms Gun Parts has M4 survival rifle parts (no barrels or receivers).
Locally a guy bought a Winchester M12 shotgun at a police or prison auction, discovered the barrel was less than 18 inches, and contacted the local ATF branch office. They advised him to take the offending barrel off the gun, immediately take it to a gunsmith and have a choke device permanently attached as a barrel extention. The guy did have records the M12 was bought at auction as a civilian legal shotgun. (Which made me wonder how he measured the barrel length: muzzle to breech face or muzzle to front of receiver?)
Previously, when USAF decommissioned aircraft with 14 inched M4 survival rifles in their survival kits, the rifles were going to be sold as surplus until someone realized they were NFA items. Numrich Arms Gun Parts has M4 survival rifle parts (no barrels or receivers).
Locally a guy bought a Winchester M12 shotgun at a police or prison auction, discovered the barrel was less than 18 inches, and contacted the local ATF branch office. They advised him to take the offending barrel off the gun, immediately take it to a gunsmith and have a choke device permanently attached as a barrel extention. The guy did have records the M12 was bought at auction as a civilian legal shotgun. (Which made me wonder how he measured the barrel length: muzzle to breech face or muzzle to front of receiver?)
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Carl N. Brown
Member
I would expect the M6 and other military firearms especially those subject to NFA definitions would have been serialized for USAF inventory purposes
Carl N. Brown
Member
If a military or police arm has been surplused and released for civilian sales, they do not remove the military or police property marks. In fact those marks are part of the collector value of the arm.
I have not seen a military surplus Ithaca M6 advertised for sale as an AOW. They could exist but they are rare.
I have seen civilian production M6 14 inch barrel replica advertised for sale as AOW (requiring Form 4 and $5 transfer tax) but the MSRP obviously included the Form 1 NFA $200 make and register tax. They were not huge sellers.
(I am on my phone and don't have access to my computer files)
I have not seen a military surplus Ithaca M6 advertised for sale as an AOW. They could exist but they are rare.
I have seen civilian production M6 14 inch barrel replica advertised for sale as AOW (requiring Form 4 and $5 transfer tax) but the MSRP obviously included the Form 1 NFA $200 make and register tax. They were not huge sellers.
(I am on my phone and don't have access to my computer files)
dogtown tom
Member
Google Ithaca M6 and there are results indicating they were sold as surplus decades ago.....and required a tax stamp.
If I wanted one, I sure as heck would want it as a military collectible. Being that they transfer with a $5 AOW stamp it would be a no brainer vs buying a civilian M6 and paying $200 to make an AOW via a Form 1.
OP needs to read this thread at AR15: https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/So-you-found-an-MG-in-the-attic--/17-322347/ While its intended for those finding a machine gun in the attic, much of the process of finding out if its registered applies.
If I wanted one, I sure as heck would want it as a military collectible. Being that they transfer with a $5 AOW stamp it would be a no brainer vs buying a civilian M6 and paying $200 to make an AOW via a Form 1.
OP needs to read this thread at AR15: https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/So-you-found-an-MG-in-the-attic--/17-322347/ While its intended for those finding a machine gun in the attic, much of the process of finding out if its registered applies.
The seller of this M6 realizes that it is contraband since no previous registration and plans on turning it over to ATF. From what we’ve read here the barrels can be sold or kept since they are not regulated. And only the receiver needs to be turned in.
dogtown tom
Member
Has he bothered contacting ATF to see if its registered?
dogtown tom
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