It's a matter of perspective. What is over the top to you

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"Remember, to probably 80% of the rest of the people in this country we are all crazy just for owning guns. Lets stop eating our own."

It's a good question/comment. I have also wondered many times what is enough? Some people, who are not LEO or work in a high risk environment or live in a high crime area, will carry a primary and back up, flash light, additional mags, a knife, and pepper spray. Where does it end? I don't know. Over the top? In my view yes, but it's easy to get yourself all worked up and worried and feeling like anything less then a LAW rocket is a risk. I don't pass judgement however. Personally, 8+1 in my 1911 and perhaps an additional mag is all I have ever felt was needed as a civi. Additionally, the person I know who has actually been in shootings as an LEO on the gang unit, entry team, and other high risk positions, carries one gun and an extra mag off duty. Should he carry more? Should I? No right answer there me thinks.
 
I think kb2iaw was asking why people carry more than one gun or lots of ammo. I think he gets the reason for carrying a gun.

I think we're forgetting that some people find it easy to carry three guns, so they figure they might as well. Some people have trouble concealing just one gun. Some of us don't mind having extra stuff on the belt. For some, anything on the belt gets in the way.
 
I carry a 9mm usp compact with 1 spare mag, a knife, and light. And still with cell phone, car keys, I find myself annoyed at all the stuff.

I also believe, like others, that fitness is pretty important. I have found in the very few violent encounters I've been in or witnessed that I was better prepared physically, but even more important than that, my mind was better prepared. When I'm fit, I seem to be able to react to stressful situations better, my heart rate and pressure stay under better control, my mind stays clearer. I'm not really sure why that is, maybe there are some physiology experts here who could explain that.

Finally, I also agree that all the bug-out-bag stuff is a little overkill. But I suppose Katrina may have me revisit that notion. I didn't think disasters in this country would reach that stage, but I had probably become complacent. I certainly think that without real survival, basic medical, navigation and mountaineering training, a bug-out-bag would just be a bunch of heavy $H17 for me to carry around. So training is also important. I grew up city but live in Oregon now. I wouldn't have the first clue how to survive in the wild or what to do with all that stuff. So all of that stuff is just tacticrap for me without training.

Noops
 
Noops,

Be of good cheer. When the system breaks down, we the competent ones will not hurt you. We will wait until the wild takes you, then strip you of all useful gear.

Your friend,
Eleven Mike :)
 
It's a good question without an answer. Enough is what you feel is enough. If you feel undergunned or unprepared with one gun, you'll carry a BUG. Others will think you're nuts. As the OP said, most people think we're all nuts just for firing any gun, let alone owning or *gasp* carrying one. So do what works for you, and try not to criticize what others do (b/c they're doing what works for them, too).

Personally, I say obey rule #1: Have a gun. If that's a Kel-Tec P32 with no spare mag, that's fine with me. Remember, only 40% of violent crimes are committed with a gun, so you're ahead of the majority of the assailants when you just obey rule #1.

So don't fret over what's too much or not enough. Be familiar with what you have and learn how to use it well. Just obey rule #1 if at all possible. My $.02
 
First off let me say that the next time I go to Texas I'm gonna see if Spartan wants to hang out. If there is trouble I think I'll just stand behind him.:D
To Kb2iaw, Were Wolf explained it as well as I ever could. To expand on his explanation just a bit let me tell you that I am a cabinet maker/carpenter. In my profession I own a lot of tools. I find myself lugging most of them with me each time I leave the shop because I might need them. One of the tools that I own is a sawzall, man don't I hate to use that thing but when you need it there is nothing out there that will do the job as well. Just as I hate it when I forget the sawzall and need it, I would really hate to need a gun and not have one with me especially since I own several. In answer to your question of age/backround I am 45, today, am married with a 15 year old daughter. I was in the service for 4 years from 81 to 85 and have been a carpenter ever since. Even though I have owned guns for roughly 20 years and had CWP for the last 15, I didn't start carrying regularly till 3 months ago. In brief it has been a couple of near misses, I have come way too close to walking in on 2 armed robberies, the last one was 3 months ago, that made me start carrying. In addition to those two incidents I have come close to being the victim of road rage three times in the last 15 years. The first 2 times I simply kept on driving but the last time the guy stopped in front of me and there was someone behind me. The guy got out of his truck, two others still inside, and came back swearing, swinging his arms, and threatening me. At the time I did not have a loaded gun in the truck. Fortunately for me he didn't know that winchester 97 I grabbed out of the rack wasn't loaded. You shoulda seen him spin on his heels. In only one of those instances did I even make a driving error. I cut the guy off but the two twenty somethings in that car did not want an appology they wanted me to "Pull over so we can beat the crap out of you". That was an offer I could refuse. That time and the other time I did have loaded guns in the car and, if nothing else it allowed me to think more clearly knowing that if the situation escalated I was prepared.
 
kb2iaw,

I doubt many of us would need to be concerned about trouble on the skeet range, but then again you have Darwin award nominee's trying to rob gunshops, where there are a lot of guns and usually an employee or two carrying guns at work, so just because we are on the skeet range, doesn't make it any safer in relative terms than a gunshop and I don't know about anyone else here, but leaving my CC weapon sitting in a bag on the firing line, where I am unable to keep an eye on it, just doesn't do it for me, since at matches/regulated ranges, rifles/pistols/shotguns have walked off (stolen) and the last thing I really want to do is arm some slug.

Nasty things can and do happen in the nicest of places, there is no force field between the evil of the world and Mayberry.

So maybe the 1911 and 2 or 3 spare magazines I carry, folding knife and scorpion flashlight and a back up gun from time to time, may be over the top to some, but it satisfies my personal comfort level, which some nasty experiences over the years has heightened and if I do it right I will just be another faceless individual in a crowd of individuals, which is an edge all in of itself.
 
Can we shorten this fence? I refuse to ride this fence, but, one time and one time only, I had my smith 38 in my right hand jacket pocket, with two speed loaders in my left hand jacket pocket. I had my beretta 92 with a ramline 18 rounder under my right arm in a shoulder holster, and two 15 round clips on my belt, and a firestar 9mm with two 8 rd spares in hip pockets.
I knocked on the door of a known drug house, with the intention that my fifteen year old daughter was coming out with me, or I was not coming out. She came out, (her mother was an anti, and this is after we divorced)and a friend of hers came out too. When I stopped a few blocks away, and removed the hardware to dump it in the trunk was the first indication they had that I was serious.
I have a keltec .32. It is enough. If I feel a need for more, I will wear more. That is freedom.

As John Wayne in "The Shootist" said,, "If you feel like loading six, load six."

Freedom, is it not great that we can all carry a belt fed mg, or a single shot derringer? As we each see fit? My legs are longer than the fence is tall, and that is as it should be. I do stand on both sides.
 
Be of good cheer. When the system breaks down, we the competent ones will not hurt you. We will wait until the wild takes you, then strip you of all useful gear.

It's good to feel loved.
 
noops? I do not know where you are, so the BOB subject is uncertain. IF you are in central Iowa in the winter, and snowstorm seals you in; If you are in the rockies, and a snowstorm seals you in; If you are in New York, and a power failure seals you in; in New orleans, and a hurricane seals you in;.
A bug Out Bag does not mean to run, it may mean to survive where you are. I am in Kansas, so I need multiple ways to keep warm from blizzards, and the knowledge that I can eat and drink if I am snowed in. It means if the sherrif can not respond to my call,,, that failed,,, did not respond to my cell call either, I can defend myself until he can respond.
I have canned goodsto live on for a couple weeks. I have water for a couple weeks. I have the ability to kill anyone that wants to steal my survival goods. Do I have the will to? I pray to god I never find out.
 
Your own habits your own protection is your business but if you want to discuss it go for it, but I will be puting in my 2cents. Remember its your opininon drawn from your experience.

Personally yeah I keep backup mags, and if you intend to shoot someone then empty the mag is my policy, you got 15 rounds put 15 rounds into the target. its not excessive its self defense.
 
I carry a G21 open strong side. No spare mags as a rule, but damn 14 rounds of .45 Federal Hydro shocks is just about enough. When I carry my 1911, I carry one spare in my hip pocket. Again 14 rounds of .45 Hydros is just about enough. IN the side pocket of my old truck there are 2 spares for the G21, one is 230 Rainer FMC just for that wounded animal, (The four legged kind!) the other is a spare of 230 grain Federal H.S. My main reason for not carrying a spare all the time is as most of you fine folks know the G21 is a large auto. It's mags are also kind of large. They are a bit uncomfortable in the hip pocket and the spare mag carriers look, well they don't look that good. Especially since I open carry. Plus I rarely go in to places where I feel I need. MHO is that a sidearm is just that a sidearm. I do not intend on being in a long drawn out FF so I stay out of places that could cause me to be in one. Being prepared and alert goes hand in hand with carrying a sidearm. One will keep you out of trouble the other will help get you out.

Chuck
 
ksnecktieman

You have a point, and I am joking a little bit. My wife and I are fairly well prepared and we've both begun getting more so. But I spent my whole life prepping in the city, and now need some learning out here in the Coastal Mountain range before I'm ready. One thing I'll say is, if you move to Oregon, put a raft in your BOB.

Noops
 
Hey all. I come from Miami originally. I carried when I lived down there almost all the time. People down there would shoot you over a parking space, or stepping on their tennis shoe by accident. One thing is for certain. If you carry an auto, keeping a spare magazine ( clips are strips inserted at the top of older rifles, I think) is not really all that difficult. Good idea to have it, just in case.

If you happen to get into a firefight, you may or may not know exactly how many rounds you fired. But if you ended up having to shoot a bad guy, or even had an exchange of gunfire, the best thing to do ASAP is reload, and check your sectors ( Flanks ) just in case the guy has a friend. Always assume if you see one, there are 2, and 2, there are three or more.

Some people think that it is overkill. That may very well be true. To be completely honest, I think that heady feeling that people get right when they first get their carry permits and strap their weapons on disappears in about an hour. You then begin to realize that carrying a weapon, practicing, cleaning, doing draw and fire drills ( practice in a mirror, since most ranges won't let you do draw and fire ) is kind of like work. Gaining proficiency with your chosen sidearms, defense against deady force, elevated threat levels, etc, begin to take their toll on you. People either get tired of doing it or complacent, and stop worrying about it. That's the attitude that gets a lot of people who do choose to carry killed. Just having a gun isn't enough. Being able to punch holes in paper isn't enough. Proficiency in all areas of carry may keep you alive. May.

IF you choose to carry, then my best advise is to do it right. IS a flashlight necessary? You bet. One of the best pieces of emergency equipment available. Lots of uses. Get a book on them, or get training. A knife. Definitely. Knives are the ultimate survival tool. And you don't need to reload them. Firearms? Well, don't bring a knife to a gunfight. And if you do carry, definitely carry spare ammo. Because even the best trained people on the street have about a 30% hit rate. That may only mean 1 or 2 shots out of 6 actually hitting a target for the unwashed masses. Regardless of what you carry, with multiple assailants, that may not be enough.

As far as caliber is concerned, I think that geographical area, and the relation to real cover is a determining factor. I have seen guys plug targets with comped .45s out to about 100 yds. If you live in the wide open spaces, you may need a bigger caliber. In tighter quarters, smaller calibers may be better.
Penetration, target aquisition, and believe it or not, bullet speed, may make a difference. Always helps to be able to hit your target faster and recover better for followup shots. Speed can and does make a difference. Even if your rounds don't drop your intended target, getting hit will definitely mess up your point of aim. Getting hit faster also has a greater psychological impact. May enable you to disengage the target and seek cover.

If you can, you will want to practice on targets that move. Milk jugs on rope filled with water are effective for that. They can swing, or be released and slide down a rope on the handle.

If you do carry an auto, your best bet is to carry your spare mag horizontally where you can reach it with either hand, in case you are wounded in either arm. Same holds true for speedloaders. Forget strips, they are impossible under stress. There are 2 types of speedloaders. The best ones are the ones that release when pressed. Twisting can be difficult when you only have one hand.

Does that qualify for over the top? It is simple, really. If you are going to go through all the trouble of securing a permit, buying and carrying a weapon, then the rest of what has been suggested is relatively easy in comparison. What will it give you? A distinct tactical advantage over some street punk who stole a firewarm last week and has never even fired it. IF you are willing to take the step of arming yourself for defensive purposes, and don't take it as seriously as possible, then you are doing yourself a great disservice by not being as prepared as possible. Under stress, rational thought goes out the window, temporal distortions, tunnel vision, and an inbability to determine exactly what has happened until after it is over is the rule, not the exception. Training and muscle memory take over. Having the confidence to know what you can do under stress, instead of guessing, may make the difference between surviving an encounter or going down.

Not only that, but you also have to remember, being on the right side of the law will definitely put you at a tactical disadvantage. Bad guys have a plan, and that plan mostly means they're going to do their best to take you by surprise. Which means that if you are alone, and they have the drop on you, you may never get to your weapon to use it. Most of the time, when armed encounters take place, you will either find yourself firing in self defense after you have been alerted to a problem, or intervening. Pretty rare to win a head to head encounter on a weapon that is already drawn on you. It can be done. But is your wallet, or your life really worth trying, if there are other choices?

Food for thought. For me, over the top means peace of mind. Complacency will do nothing but get you killed. Beginners are nervous enough that they are going to do it because they feel they have to. Old timers do it because they know they have to. It's the guys in the middle who seem to get bagged the most. The bible basically says "Live by the sword, die by the sword", so even choosing to carry has put your feet on that path. Carrying half heartedly can be more dangerous than not carrying at all. Stay sharp out there, ok?

Stretch
 
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I've been carrying for two years, eight months, and twenty-two days. I started with a Raven .25ACP the day after I was robbed and fired upon at my home in April, 2004. My aunt gave me that gun when she saw the news story about the robbery. When I knew better and could do better -- I did, but I way overdid it for a while.

At one time I was so paranoid that I carried everything I could get my hands on. A couple of months after I was robbed, I took a short trip to the southern part of my state. It was a trip to the shooting range at Camp Atterbury (Indiana), and I intended to shoot one handgun and one rifle, but I was afraid I would be attacked while out on the road. I ended up making three trips to the car before leaving for Atterbury. Finally I was ready to leave. The car was loaded up with every tool in the chest: three handguns, two shotguns, a rifle, and a bow. I was really over-the-top!

It took me a year and a half to learn how to shoot each piece until I eventually became comfortable with the various purposes of each gun. I have come to a couple of conclusions that I will share only as my particular perspective, although the first one in the list I believe is applicable to all Americans.

1. It is wise to carry a defensive weapon everywhere it is legal. The day I was robbed, it was a beautiful afternoon in a nice neighborhood. Don't be fooled by the "I only carry a gun when I go into a bad neighborhood" crowd. Guess where the bad guys go to steal the best stuff --the best neighborhoods! I even carry at least one gun into the church-house every Sunday, because terrorists love to hit us when we are not expecting them.

2. I try out a variety of guns every chance I get, and buy the ones I like, not the ones being pushed by the snobs. I have five handguns now, all different brands, and I really like shooting all of them, even that little Raven.

3. I respect each gun for its intended purpose, and for different situations. I carry my full-sized 9MM semi with +P Cor-Bons and a .38 special revolver almost all the time. The only exception is when I'm wearing a T-shirt and shorts in the summer. In that case I simply wear my back-up gun, a snub-nosed .38 with Gold Dot +P "short barrel" 135-grainers. When I go squirrel hunting I carry a Ruger Single-Six with the deadliest .22 Mag HP's I can find until I get to the woods; then I switch to .22lr small game ammo. I keep a Mossberg 500 loaded with buckshot and a .357 magnum revolver loaded with Gold Dot .357's in my bedroom. Sometimes I carry the Raven on my ankle 'just because.'

4. It is important to read and study ballistics and other information related to the proper use of firearms, especially posts on this forum. In the process, never substitute someone else's opinion for your own judgment.

5. Practice. I go to the range an average of twice a week. I not only shoot all of my guns in rotation, but I take time to ask lots of questions, preferring the advice of the seasoned veteran shooters at the range. I remember when I couldn't even hit an 8.5" X 11" sheet of paper. Now I feel confident that I could do what is necessary in the event of another attack. That doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Thank you for all of the fine posts here. I am learning so much, and putting it into practice.
 
Stretchman?
I have heard all about these wild wild west scenarios from the anti gunners for years, but I was under the impression it never came to pass because of legal carry of concealed firearms. Are you saying that is the reason everyone is armed? To defend against it?

If you can provide details, or link us to examples in the news or the courts, I think many of us would learn by reading them.
 
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