Iver Johnson Supershot Timing

[Johnm1]

I bought this IJ Supershot because the designer must have had me in mind when he designed it. It has my name all over it. It is in great shape and I would love it to be my 22 woods gun. Except it doesn't shoot worth a darn. It spits lead on every shot and cant beat a 2" square at 10 yards.



It doesn't lock up consistently. About half the time I can fire the gun and while holding trigger down I can turn the cylinder a tiny bit to full lock up. It is not a specific cylinder and one time a specific cylinder will lock up and another time it won't.

Before I tackle the timing I want to resolve a cylinder alignment issue. I'm not sure if this is the cause of the timing issue, a contributing factor, or unrelated. See the below photograph of the gap at the rear of the cylinder. The top is tighter than the bottom. I cannot photograph the forward cylinder gap as this cylinder has a forward lip.



I can measure the `arbor` that the cylinder rotates on and can measure 0.08" difference from the bottom of the top strap to the arbor from left to right in this picture. So the arbor is not parallel to the top strap.



My question is if this is or is a contributor to the timing issue. Keep in mind that I'm measuring using a set of calipers and there is room for error in the way I measured it. It could be more than the 0.08"

 

[Johnm1]

To add a bit more information, the gap at the top is 0.08" and the gap at the bottom is 0.265"

 

[Coyote3855]

I don't have a solution to your problem. There may not be one. My first ever handgun was an Iver Johnson Trailsman 66 I bought new in 1961. That model is a break top like yours, a newer version. After two trips back to the factory, it would still did not index correctly. There were firing pin marks on both sides of every charge hole. Of course that meant when the trigger was pulled, there was a good chance the revolver would not fire. The revolver worked through maybe 500 rounds before the problem started and it got worse over time.

When it came back from the factory the second time, my dad finally let me trade it for a used Ruger Single Six which is what I wanted in the first place.

He pushed me towards the IJ because he had one when he was a kid and apparently it worked for him. I still have the Single Six. It has never misfired.

Given the information you provided, this may not be a problem you can fix. I expect a gunsmith might tell you the same thing, or he might charge you more than the gun is worth for trying. Your best bet is to put this thing in a picture frame and get a pistol that works. Even though the current Iver Johnson is not the same firm it was in 1961, I will not consider anything with that name on it.

 

[Johnm1]

We will see what the gunsmith says. It doesn't hurt to ask. As long as it isn't ungodly expensive I'm willing to invest in the gun. I won't ask the gunsmith to address the timing issue. That would be too expensive and I don't think I could convince him to do the work anyhow. I suspect the arbor is at least a contributing factor to the timing/lock up issues and the timing issues can't be addressed until the arbor issue is resolved. If it can be. Though I don't see why the arbor issue couldn't be addressed, it may not be able to be addressed economically enough. Example, I'd pay $100 to get the arbor fixed and evaluate the timing/lock up issues after.

I wonder if it left the factory this way and because it didn't shoot worth a darn wasn't used much. Maybe that explains why it is in such good shape except for the fact it doesn't shoot worth a darn.

 

[BBBBill]

I can measure the `arbor` that the cylinder rotates on and can measure 0.08" difference from the bottom of the top strap to the arbor from left to right in this picture. So the arbor is not parallel to the top strap.

It is possible (even likely) that this is a problem, although it may not be related to the timing issue. Before you get hung up on parallelism with the top strap, consider that the arbor really needs to be parallel with the bore centerline. The top strap misalignment may just be incidental. Measure to a close fitting arbor down the bore to verify alignment before proceeding to the next issue.

 

[Johnm1]

Thanks Bill,

I realized that the real issue is if the cylinder is parallel with the bore. Although I could rig up something along the bore centerline to measure in that one axis, and I probably will when i get home tonight, I have no real way to measure the other, perpendicular, axis. By looking at the lead buildup in the forcing cone, it is predominantly at the 11:00 o'clock position indicating that there is a misalignment in both axis. Though only slightly in what I'll call the horizontal axis.

I am not a gunsmith nor a machinist, so this is a job better left to someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[Comp_jas]

I've been looking to find a supershot since I refurbished a top break .32.

The .32 had a top latch that had to be pried open with a screwdriver. Something was bent/deformed slightly from either a misfire or a drop etc.

The .32 was the first gun I ever worked on..so I only know about that somewhat similar model..

The top of the frame looks bent forward slightly in the last image. Not sure if that's an optical illusion. I swore mine had a similar out of parallel condition. I could not adjust/straighten the arbor/quill although I tried.

The .32 had a tendency to jam when dry fired. The ratchet can twist slightly within the cylinder.. I had to install snap caps or empty casings to keep it aligned. I think the super shots have a pin that keeps the ratchet aligned.

If you lightly pull the trigger so the cylinder stop drops does the cylinder spin freely? I would think final alignment is just a function of the cylinder stop and the detent. Does it align in single action? The cylinder stop only retracts very briefly at which point the cylinder needs to be rotating or it will bind.

There is a fair amount of upward force applied to the cylinder by the pawl during revolution. Maybe yours is dragging enough that it never reaches home. On the .32 if I removed the top latch everything worked like it should but the top of the gun would pop open during dry fire. Upward force of the pawl would pop the latch but that gave clearance for the cylinder to revolve.

If I latched the top of the gun but removed the knuckle screw the gun would dry fire and revolve normally also. Anything that bought me a little bit of clearance.

Eventually I had to enlarge the knuckle hole on the barrel by 1mm..everything played together after that. Like you said the quill and the barrel aligned in the same axis is crucial. If you drop an appropriate item down the barrel does it cleanly enter the cylinder?

 

[Bob N. Weave]

It might have been slammed shut which bent the top strap. That would account for the tapered clearance between rear of cylinder and recoil shield and the timing issue.

 

[Johnm1]

It might have been slammed shut which bent the top strap. That would account for the tapered clearance between rear of cylinder and recoil shield and the timing issue.

That is a definite possibility. Likely never know.

I took it to my gunsmith today. I told him the symptoms and that I would not ask him to fix the timing. He said that all he could do was bend it back and he did while I stood there. There was no charge. The gap at the rear of the cylinder is now uniform and each cylinder locks up every time. I'll test it in the morning but I suspect it will be at least better.

 

[Johnm1]

I measured the gap at the rear of the cylinder last night and it isn't quite uniform. Yet. It measures 0.18"/0.26". Test fire this morning and there is definite improvement. Spitting has almost completely gone away. Was 100% of the time, it is now 1 in 50 or so. Fail to fire also went from 30% to about 5% I was able to drop the group size to 1" at 10 yards. Better, not great yet. In dry fire testing it achieves lock up 100% of the time. The random spitting during live fire testing this morning indicates there are still times it doesn't reach lock up.

I will work to get the gap perfectly even and see if I can get this to shoot well/better. I am happy with the improvement.
Before

After

 

[Johnm1]

The top of the frame looks bent forward slightly in the last image. Not sure if that's an optical illusion.

The .32 had a tendency to jam when dry fired. The ratchet can twist slightly within the cylinder.. I had to install snap caps or empty casings to keep it aligned. I think the super shots have a pin that keeps the ratchet aligned.

If you lightly pull the trigger so the cylinder stop drops does the cylinder spin freely? I would think final alignment is just a function of the cylinder stop and the detent. Does it align in single action? The cylinder stop only retracts very briefly at which point the cylinder needs to be rotating or it will bind.

There is a fair amount of upward force applied to the cylinder by the pawl during revolution. Maybe yours is dragging enough that it never reaches home. On the .32 if I removed the top latch everything worked like it should but the top of the gun would pop open during dry fire. Upward force of the pawl would pop the latch but that gave clearance for the cylinder to revolve.

If I latched the top of the gun but removed the knuckle screw the gun would dry fire and revolve normally also. Anything that bought me a little bit of clearance.

Eventually I had to enlarge the knuckle hole on the barrel by 1mm..everything played together after that. Like you said the quill and the barrel aligned in the same axis is crucial. If you drop an appropriate item down the barrel does it cleanly enter the cylinder?

In Answer to your questions. The was never a bind on the cylinder. It would spin free with the bolt dropped. The frame may be bent but I dont have a way to measure that. All I can measure is the gap at the rear of the cylinder.

Initially there was a misalignment in lock up that I could detect with a rod down the barrel at the 6 o'clock position. Now with the arbor more closely parallel with the bore that has gone away. What remains is the slightest misalignment at the 9 o'clock position. The gap at the rear of the cylinder is not perfectly equal from left to right (9 o'clock to 3 o'clock) but it is only a few thousands different. I suspect that the hand is not pushing up on the ratchet hard enough to align the cylinders with the bore. I am experimenting with nail polish to see if I can temporarily/artificially extend the end of the hand to cure that. It could still be the arbor alignment in either axis. I need to study what I have before I do anything else.

 

[BBBBill]

What remains is the slightest misalignment at the 9 o'clock position. The gap at the rear of the cylinder is not perfectly equal from left to right (9 o'clock to 3 o'clock) but it is only a few thousands different.

It may never have been perfectly even side to side. Production tolerances, being what they are, may allow some slight difference in dimension. This does not necessarily indicate misalignment, although it can and possibly/probably does in your gun. I've had to repair numerous S&W's and Colts over the years for similar issues and those all had solid frames. Yokes/cranes can be slightly bent in any direction. Cylinders can be machined with the front and/or rear face out of square with the center bore. Frame windows can be machined out of square in any plane. I'm remembering a particularly bad Colt V frame 357 that I had to re-machine the breech face square both vertically and horizontally (It was out far enough that case heads would rattle on one side and bind on the other), reface the cylinder to eliminate runout/bind against the barrel, cut off/bore/install a new gas ring to enable adjusting cylinder end shake, and make/install a new firing pin to get enough protrusion. What a hot mess!

A close fitting arbor in the bore (range rod) will tell you more about alignment. If the hand is a simple design you may be able to fabricate a longer one or have the tip TIG welded to build it up. What did the smith bend, the top strap or the cylinder arbor? Either may need further adjustment or not depending on what measurements indicate.

 

[Johnm1]

He bent the arbor.

All I’m doing now is making minor adjustments and checking for cylinder alignment on each chamber. I figure this is timed like a Smith & Wesson where it gets close enough with the hand/bolt and there is enough play that the cylinder self centers from there.

I’m at the range waiting to set out a target as the last tests I did showed alignment in all 8 cylinders. We’ll see if it holds.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.

 

[FROGO207]

I had a 32 cal version also and the ejection star would lock up in only one orientation on the cylinder. All the other combos would not lock well and spit lead even though the star fit the cylinder. Might be something to check.

 

[Johnm1]

I had a 32 cal version also and the ejection star would lock up in only one orientation on the cylinder. All the other combos would not lock well and spit lead even though the star fit the cylinder. Might be something to check.

Interesting concept. This ratchet is indexed with a single pin. It can only be installed one way. But thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Johnm1]

It seems that things have improved but not as much as I would have hoped. It may be that I am part of the problem. On the third trip to shoot/test today I took my Stevens target pistol for comparison and shot at the same distance. The target pistol was all the rage in the 1890's though mine was made in the teens. It is still quite accurate and is a single shot. So there are no timing issues to deal with. This is about as good as I can do with the target pistol at 10 yards. Seems my eyes aren't what they used to be. Sucks getting old. The orange circle is 3" diameter. The inner circle is just under 1 1/2". So this is about a 2" group.

m

Here is where we started. That's over 3" square.



this was after the last adjustment. Again, the orange circle is 3" in diameter. Better, not good though.



The target pistol has a 10" barrel, much better trigger, and more precise sights. Add 60 year old eyes and I may be the difference between the two groups.

 

[Johnm1]

Well I think that bending the arbor (Smith and Wesson calls it a base pin on their top breaks by the way) has corrected the timing issue. I tweaked it a little bit more and the bolt engages the cylinder stop cuts every time now. I took it back out to the desert and used a prone position to shoot the best groups I could with my control 22 and this revolver. The orange targets are 3" in diameter and the inner circle is a little less than 1 1/2".

The control pistol is a Stevens Target #35 - The Stevens has a wonderful trigger pull, 10" sight radius, and a very nice front/rear sight configuration where the bead on the front sight rests inside a rounded part of the rear sight that centers the front sight as well as enough light on each side to really know the front/rear sight is aligned correctly. The revolver has a poor trigger even in single action, is very blocky, and the front sight is square and fills the rear sight so very little light passes along the side. The target was only at 10 yards.


The control target - So, even with the control pistol, I'm just not a really good shot I guess.


Group with known bad shot - you know when you pull or push a shot. This is one of those cases where I called the shot after the trigger pull.


Group and the flyer didn't feel like it was me - I didn't feel like I did something wrong on this one, but it seems as likely that I did and didn't notice it.




Maybe I can work on smoothing out the trigger pull and getting a better sight picture by narrowing the front sight or enlarging the rear notch. Although better shooters could get better results, I think as far as the timing goes and its effect on accuracy, I think I have cured that problem. Would you agree?

Look up in this thread to see where I started.

 

[WestKentucky]

Getting better for sure. Have you swapped out and tried a variety of ammo yet? Seems the next logical place to go since you have minimized the mechanical issues.

 

[Johnm1]

I have tried some different brands but not many. I'll have to buy a bunch of different types and see what it likes. I'm not against shooting 22 longs or even 22 shorts if they shoot better.

I think now I'm more disappointed in how poorly I shoot instead of how poorly the gun shoots. I really love the style of the revolver and really want to make it work for me. Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Johnm1]

Well I found the cartridge that the Supershot likes. It is the Aguila 22 'Sniper' Subsonic ammunition. It shoots a 60 grain projectile and the only way they can get a projectile that large to fit into a 22 LR chamber is to load them into 22 short cases. The specs on the ammo is

Grain Weight‎: ‎60 Grains
Muzzle Velocity‎: ‎950 Feet Per Second
Bullet Style‎: ‎Round Nose
Muzzle Energy‎: ‎120 Foot Pounds

Here is what it can do now at 11 yards:



I'm pretty happy.

Goofy looking cartridge

 

[Johnm1]

Here is a comparison of the Sniper compared to a regular 40 grain LR.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

Aguila has a pretty good reputation around here, and I gotta say they seem to be an inventive lot down there.

 

[Johnm1]

I'm interested in seeing how it shoots in my Savage 1914 pump action 22. It'd be nice if it shot well in both my pistol and rifle of choice. It does shoot well in the Stevens single shot.