Jacketed vs. Lead, low velocity and wounding?

[Cowboy2]

This question really just relates to heavy and slow pistols, like .45 Colt. In terms of wounding, does a jacketed hollow point provide real benefits over lead bullets?

I got to thinking the other day, and realized that I had always just assumed that JHP's were better than lead. But it was just an assumption, I had never actually heard much explanation as to why they are better when dealing with a bullet that travels so slow. I'm not saying they aren't better, and I can think of a couple of reasons why they might in fact be better.

Just for the sake a clarity, I'm not asking about barrel leading or how jackets allow for higher velocities. I just want to hear from someone who knows more about this stuff than I do--in terms of lethality to a critter, is the JHP superior, and why?

 

[rcmodel]

Wow! Hard question that's bound to start a flame war!

I personally think that the .45 Colt & .44 Spl. are served pretty well by a 240 - 250 grain SWC Keith style lead bullet.

In order to get more velocity out of a JHP & insure expansion, the bullet weight has to be less.

On the otherhand, for 150 pound two-legged varmints, a 200 grain JHP going over 1,000 FPS is probably going to be pretty devestating.

If hunting bear country though, give me the lead SWC every time.


rcmodel

 

[Cowboy2]

OK, well, lets narrow it down a little. Lets say I handload my ammo, and am deciding between a 230grn JHP and a 230grn lead bullet, for two different applications. Assume accuracy and velocity is the same for each, and both will be fired from a SAA.

First situation, close range 2-legged critters. Second situation, close range (25yds or less) shooting at a 300lbs wild boar.

I know both can do the job, just wondering which would be better for the two applications listed above.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

For the wild boar, I'd choose a heavier cast bullet -- say 250 to 300 grains. For two-legged critters, I'd go with an M1911 with a hollow point.

 

[rcmodel]

+1
For a 300 pound wild bore, you want maximum penetration from any angle, and a JHP will not give you that if it expands as it is designed to do.

In that case, a 230 lead RN would not be my first choice either.

I would want a full 250 grain, lead SWC, Keith style bullet for maximum penetration & tissue damage through heavy bone, muscle, etc.

Another thing to consider if you are talking about a Colt SAA or clone is where those loads are going to hit.

Any wide variation in bullet weight or velocity from the standard 250 - 255 load is not going to shoot where the fixed sights are looking.

On the otherhand, if you are talking about a Ruger Blackhawk with adjustable sights, that opens up a whole nother world of power & heavy bullet loads for hog hunting.


rcmodel

 

[Majic]

You should also understand that lead doesn't have to be limited to low velocities. If lead is cast with the right mixture to get the desired hardness and then a good lube is added to the bullet then that cast bullet can be shot as fast as any jacketed handgun bullet. As long as the bullet isn't brittle it will hold together retaining weight and allowing deep penetration. That's why heavy cast bullets are desired for hunting.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Bullets cast of wheel weights shoot very well at velocities in the 1000+ FPS range. And a good, wide nose 250 cast bullet at 1000 fps will shoot through any boar you're liable to encounter and leave a wide hole.

 

[DWARREN123]

I believe that lead bullets are better at lower velocities and jacketed at higher velocities.

 

[mavracer]

2 legs = speer 250 golddots they are like the 38+p SBGD on steroids
4 legs = like every one else 250 lead SWC @1000

 

[pinkymingeo]

Who said hollowpoints will expand? Actually, sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they hit something hard, like bone, and shatter. Sometimes they act just like hardball. A 45-caliber lswc will drill a deep, 45-caliber hole. It'll probably make two holes: one in, the other out. It's gratifying to know exactly what your bullet is going to do when it reaches the target.

 

[macadore]

I have heard, but cannot confirm, that for a lead hollow point to expand, it must travel at over 950 fps. However, at that speed it starts to melt and lead the barrel, hence the jhp.

 

[marsofold]

The old lead hydroshock bullets with the post in the center of the hollowpoint to facilitate expansion would begin to expand at 700fps. Pure lead hollowpoint bullets can be cast at home to expand at around 800fps. Plain copper hollowpoint designs used to need 1400fps+ to begin expanding, but now many copper jacketed hollowpoints have serrations down the sides to facilitate expansion at lower speeds. And copper bullets tend to feed better in many automatics. I have a 454 Casull revolver and handload my own ammo. Although I can easily load 250grain bullets up to 2000fps, what do I load for home defense? 250grain lead semiwadcutters at 950fps. No hollowpoint expansion needed and low recoil for rapid firing. Reliable. Just a big flat nose splatting its way clean through any predators.

 

[Cowboy2]

Thanks everybody. I guess the consensus is that lead penetrates better, JHPs expand more. A recent article about hunting in Africa with lead bullets had just gotten me curious as to what the real benefits were in slow pistol rounds.

 

[Majic]

I have heard, but cannot confirm, that for a lead hollow point to expand, it must travel at over 950 fps. However, at that speed it starts to melt and lead the barrel, hence the jhp.

You may have heard it but it is dead wrong. A lot of people just doesn't understand all the factors of shooting lead bullets.

 

[macadore]

“You may have heard it but it is dead wrong. A lot of people just doesn't understand all the factors of shooting lead bullets.”

I believe I read this in a gun magazine in the seventies. That’s why I wrote, “I have heard, but cannot confirm”. Since you have held forth as an expert, what are all the factors of shooting lead bullets? Please give sources.

 

[Majic]

Sources....quite a few books on bullet casting and my 20+ years of bullet casting. You have to size your bullet to the bore. It can and should be slightly oversized, but if undersized then it will lead as the gases blow around the bullet as it travels down the bore. You also can adjust the hardness of the bullet by changing the mixture of your alloy. You can cast bullets out of pure linotype and shoot them in rifles, but keep the speeds under 2500 fps. You must also pay close attention to your lube. You don't want the bullet running out of lube before it exits the barrel. Hard lubes can be more detrimental than softer lubes. If using pre-cast bullets you bought thenit's a good idea to scrape out the hard lube most companies use (they use it because it's more durable for shipping and handling) and replace it with a softer lube. So if you have the bullet correctly sized for that particular fiream, made of the correct hardness needed, and have a good lube of sufficient quantity you can drive that bullet to high velocities.
There are even tricks for pure soft lead bullets so they also can be driven to high velocities. A wiper disc which is a small metal disc can be added to the bullet's base as it's being swaged. This disc being bore size scrapes the bore behind the bullet.
There is also the 2 part bullet that the shank is cast hard to resist leading the the nose cast soft to insure expansion.

 

[macadore]

So why use JHP rather than lead?

 

[suemarkp]

I think it all comes down to how hard the lead is. Soft lead expands easily, and is what you want in a defense load. Hard lead does not, but is a good penetrator. As velocities climb, soft lead wipes off too much in the barrel and the increased pressures melt the base. This makes your gun barrel a mess and in an extreme case the bullet can desinigrate.

If you want your bullet to go faster and still expand, it needs a jacket. In the old days, the jackets were hard to expand unless IMPACT velocities were in the 900+ FPS range. But newer designs have made this better. So soft lead + copper jacket + hollowpoint makes good defense load (bigger hole, limited penetration).

If you want fast lead bullets, they have to be hard. Hard doesn't expand well unless it hits bone.

Some would say in 45, just use soft lead HP bullets that go slow (and it would probaby work fine). But in calibers that can go faster, you get a better trajectory and long range ability if the bullet is going faster (1200 FPS +) which is too fast for soft lead. Same reason most people use high speed jacketed rifle bullets today instead of a slow 45-70 lead bullet.

 

[Pumpkinheaver]

Use a cast bullet with a large flat point and it will kill very well.

 

[RyanM]

A JHP that doesn't expand will still at least have the sharp edges on it, so it'll make a slightly bigger hole, and have a lesser chance of sliding off bone, if it hits at an angle.

 

[stormspotter]

For my Ruger New Vaqueros I use either a 265 gr. Keith or a 270 gr. SAA, both from Mt. Baldy, and 8.5 gr. Unique.

There is a good article on the New Vaquero in the April 2005 issue of handloader listing some good loads for the smaller framed New Vaquero.

 

[BRASSM]

I used to cast .357 158gr. SWC HP from wheelweights, with 13.5gr of 2400. And they stopped javalina and feral hogs dead. No problems usually the bullets exited not to be recovered. The few that hit bone normally deformed but didn't disintegrate.