older S&W jacketed vs. lead?

[westernrover]

I'm beginning to pursue older S&W after getting three new ones of poor quality last year, and because contributors here suggested I seek out an older Model 28 instead of a new 627 for example. One thing I'm curious about is whether older S&W were somehow optimized for cast lead bullets vs. jacketed bullets by forcing cone angles or button or broach cut rifling vs. ECM, or in some other way. I realize this is just one example, but look at these results from Lucky Gunner:



The Model 28 they were testing was from the 70's. I'm looking at all the years from the 50's through the 70's, and I can imagine that cast lead bullets were overwhelmingly the most popular for revolvers in those decades. Here we can see a significant drop in velocity when shooting Gold Dot's or FMJ in the Model 28 versus revolvers of more recent make with the same or even much shorter barrel length. Yet the same Model 28 shows markedly increased velocity with SWCHP's and no less than expected velocity with HBWC's.

Is there something I should know about older S&W revolvers and jacket bullets, or is there an explanation for this one example's results?

 

[Drail]

That chart is very misleading and I wouldn't put any faith in it.

 

[forrest r]

I'm sure brownell's forcing cone cutting tools will be brought up, might as well post a link to their instructions.
http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/Inst-152.pdf
At the end of the day how the forcing cone was cut/finished and how concentric it is in the bore far out ways what angle it is. Myself, a 27/28 would be my last choice in s&w 357's. Don't like the high bore axis nor the short cylinders.

If you're looking for extreme accuracy, it comes at a $$$$. Buy the 28 & send it in and have the bbl setback squared & trued, a 3/1000th's to 4/1000th's cylinder gap set, re-cut forcing cone & muzzle, trigger work, timing work & the cylinders re-cut/trued/evened up. An that's with the thought that the bbl.or cylinder is good enough to be salvaged/worked on. You'll be in the $1400+ range just getting everything wright & tight.

Spend the $$$$ buy once cry once. A Schneider built ppc revolver with a 1 in 11 twist 11* forcing cone.


Spend the $$$$ buy once cry once. A couple of dw's that had the triggers/timing/cylinders reworked along with bbl.'s, custom 1 in 10, 1 in 12 & factory 1 in 16's. Custom forcing cones (specific cut for 1 bullet design/style), heavy bbl shrouds, muzzle breaks, along with factory setups.


Spend the $$$$ buy once cry once. $1100 and change for one of those "factory" s&w's that are not what they used to be/made as good as they used to be.


Probably should send that s&w 686 back that's pictured above. Keep getting lousy 6-shot groups like these @ 50ft with it using bullets cast from free range lead and mixed cases.


It only takes $$$$, there's edm's/cut/5*/11*/custom cut/1 in 10's/1 in 11/1 in 12's/1 in 16's/1 in 183/8's

 

[MrBorland]

That chart is very misleading and I wouldn't put any faith in it

Please tell us exactly - with facts - why it's misleading.

 

[forrest r]

Bullets a always interesting. Typically you get highest to lowest velocities from:
coated bullets
cast bullets
jacketed bullets
plated bullets

Seeing a chart with velocities like the 1 you posted is always a good thing. As you can see firearms vary & you could get into cause & affect posts that would easily fill pages of this thread. Bullet design in the same firearm is far more important and should be given consideration when velocity matters.
I've cast & swaged my own lead and jacketed bullets for decades for the 9mm's/38spl's/357's/44spl's/44mags/45acp's/223rem/308w/30-06/300mag. Done a lot of testing over the years. Finely decided to break down and test snubnosed 38spl p+ loads. Never worried about snubnosed 357's, always got enough velocity out of mag loads, the bullet didn't matter. Decided on anything over 1200fps with a 158gr bullet was good enough in a snubnosed 357. Didn't take long to find several loads for a 2 1/2" bbl'd l-comp.


A snubnosed 38spl on the other hand, time for some testing. I never had any use for a snubnosed 38spl always carried a snubnosed 44spl. The misses wanted 1 & what the misses wants, she gets. She ended up with a 2" bbl'd 38spl, a ca undercover. Tested factory loads and some reloads I had laying around. There was nothing that was impressive or stood out so I started testing 38spl p+ reloads. Went with these 8 bullets for the tests. They ranged from h&g #51's to lyman 358477's/358156's/358439's to 640 hp's, custom swaged jacketed hp's, cast 148gr hbwc's to a cramer "hunting bullet" hp's.


I did the testing with 5 different powders using hot loads. At the end of the day there was as much as 40fps+ difference between bullet designs. With all 5 different powders these 4 bullets always had the highest velocities.


What they have in common is that they either have a gas check or huge bottom drive band's/bullet base's. They sealed the cylinders/bbl the fasted hence more velocity. Those home swaged brass hp's did extremely well. Brass has a higher velocity than it's copper counterparts/jackets. Couple that with the long bullet body that sealed very well. When I coated and retested the 2 center bullets I picked up another +/-20fps in that snubnosed revolver.

All this doesn't sound like much. In a long bbl or hot mag loads, who cares. But with a good bullet selection and the right bullet composition/coats I was loads in the 950fps range with +/- 158gr bullets compared to +/-870fps with poorly designed bullets in a 2" bbl'd 38spl is huge.

So ya, bullet design is huge & what they are made out of is huge. And more importantly how they are lubed makes huge differences. It's nothing to get 50fps+ out of the same cast bullet in anything from a 38spl to a 308w by imply changing from traditional lube to powder coating them. The other side of the coin is if I had a semi-auto 300bo with a can, I'd be looking at plated bullets. Lower velocities per bullet coating ='s higher pressure loads/better fnction of the firearm and the same velocity as other bullet coating/lubes/compositions.

 

[George P]

forrestr - in your last pic, what is the bullet on the right that looks like it was a round of ammo at one time?

 

[Walkalong]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/making-bullets-using-brass-cases-as-the-jacket.565378/

 

[forrest r]

Bullets made out of shell cases are real thumpers


Those 175gr bullets are just too much fun in the 8" dw or 10" bbl'd contender with full house loads of either h110 or mp-300

For the record a 25gr hp is a massive hole for a hp in a 35cal bullet. Most hp pins for cast hp's are 10gr to 15gr.

 

[Jim NE]

I'm beginning to pursue older S&W after getting three new ones of poor quality last year....

Sorry to hear about your unfortunate experiences. I wish you the best in acquiring the gun you're pursuing now. Since you're talking about velocities, however, I think I should point out that Buffalo Bore Ammo up in Idaho has said that they tend to get higher velocities with newer Smith and Wesson barrels rather than old ones that are comparable in caliber, length and wear. That's what they say, for what it's worth. Google them for contact info.

 

[Eddietruett]

I'm not real keen on the angles etc. but from over 40 years of owning revolvers and reloading my own ammo, I would say that age of a revolver has nothing to do with how it performs with cast versus jacketed. At least "stock" revolvers. I've had some that shot better with lead and some that shot better with jacketed. Some shot better with bullets pushed hard and some shot better with wadcutters almost falling out of the barrel slow. A perfect example is I have 2 Model 686's. One with a 7" Barrel and other has a 8 3/8". I use them for hunting. Using 158-180gr bullets pushed basically to the max, the 7" shoots jacketed much better and the 8 3/8" shoots cast the best.