Jammer Six and the Busted Extractors

[1911Tuner]

A continuation of this thread, due to the other one goin' to hellinahandbasket, gettin' a bit off-topic...and long in the tooth.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99404
__________________

Jammer overnighted the top end to me...and all seems to be well.
Here's what I found:

The slide was in-spec, but on the short side of tolerance from the firing pin slot centerline to the breechface, causing the extractor to sit slightly forward.

The extractors...both of'em...were on the long side of tolerance from the
stop slot to the backside of the hook, contributing to a tolerance stackup issue in relation to the extractor groove of the cartridge. Don't know if this has been corrected by the vendor in a different lot.

Both firing pin stops in the extractors width was out of spec, which allowed
.005 inch of fore and aft play in the channel. I replaced his extractor with a used Wilson part designed for a Series 80 Colt...

The extractor channel was slightly angled to the right, making it necessary
to reduce the front pad to just under .125 inch in order to obtain correct tension on the case rim during feeding...and as a result, more "bend' was required in order to maintain tension throughout the cycle. This made nearly total reduction of the right side of the center pad in order to prevent hard binding when the extractor cams open to receive the rim.

There was slight clocking of the extractor noted, and not having an oversized firing pin stop on hand...I used a punch to raise a dimple on the side of the stop to put it into contact with the extractor. This is a field expedient repair, and an oversized stop should be correctly fitted...though the expedient fix will hold up unless the stop is removed from the slide repeatedly over a period of time.

The barrel fit was good, and the chamber slightly short, making perfect headspace on an .895 GO gauge. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it will tend to make the gun less reliable with case lead bullets with a shoulder that provides a full-diameter driving band unless seated flush with the case mouth.

The slide walked onto an old 1918 Colt frame, and all timing functions are correct. I'll test-fire the top end on this frame and see what we have.

All indications that the problem issolved, as long as the extractor isn't forced to snap over the rim during a push-feed, which is most often a magazine issue during the feeding of the last round.

If everything checks out, Jammer should have hhis pistol up and runnin' no later than Saturday.

Drop-In parts sometimes don't...

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[1911Tuner]

Update

Fished around and found a firing pin stop that's wide enough to keep the extractor squared up. One little hitch...It's a stainless Series 80 Colt stop.
It works, and it's perfectly sized to the slide. It just ain't the right color. If Jammer can't live with it, he can always refit an EGW later.
All he's gotta do is copy the dimensions on the Colt stop and slide it in.

Standin' by...

 

[Old Fuff]

Did Jammer send you the original extractor that S.A. put in the gun? It would be interesting to see if it was on the short side, and therefore correct for that particular slide. As I previously mentioned to Jammer, always measure before you alter any part.

I don't think that S.A. would know a blueprint if they tripped over it, and I wonder if they even spot-check parts when they are received from vendors.

That chamber should run between .898 - .920 max. These days short (match) chambers are the order of the day, and they unquestionably contribute toward failure-to-go-into-battery jams.

It's really sad. Back when ... they could build better guns in the middle of a war.

 

[Jammer Six]

Nope

I didn't send him the original.

It's long gone.

It broke over a year ago, and I simply bought a Brown, threw it in with no modification, tuned it, and it lasted most of a year.

I have a brand new oversized Ed Brown firing pin stop sitting right here, because I noticed that the old one was really loose.

I should have sent it in the package... :banghead:

I have some questions, and I'll post them later this evening- there's at least four things I'm supposed to be doing right now, but this is so much more fun...

 

[1911Tuner]

OEM Extractor

Old Fuff asked:

Did Jammer send you the original extractor that S.A. put in the gun? It would be interesting to see if it was on the short side...
_______________________

Nope...but I did have occasion to see yet another Springfield extractor that was givin' Amish_Bill fits. He came up last Friday and brought his Loaded Springer for a little trigger work,(disconnect failing to reset/gun failing to fire) andto have a Wilson extractor fitted. (Odd things happened on that one)

The OEM extractor hook was .005 inch shorter than the spec minimum,
and is yet another trend with Springfield extractors. The steel was
tough and appeared to be correctly heat-treated...but now the hooks are too short! That's the third one I've seen...and heard of two more. Same deal. Failures to extract...Short hooks.

I tweaked the Wilson, prepped and installed a Briley disconnect, and added a little tension to middle leaf of the sear spring. His original problem
was solved, but he had a return to battery failure on test-firing...I probably got a little too much tension on the puller-outer. Then...the damnedest thing...but that's meat for another thread.

 

[Dave Sample]

Interesting.

 

[1911Tuner]

Tomorrow

Welp...Gonna try to make a range run early in the A.M. and run 250 rounds of PMC hardball through it. If I can get back early enough, I'll try my best to FedEx it back to ya around noon, Jammer.

Just outta morbid curiosity, I tried the slide on two early 1991-A1s...and it sliped right on both of'em. Lined up flush at the back and ever'thang.
Interesting...

 

[Jammer Six]

Thanks, 'Tuner.

I'm taking the liberty of posting the exchange you and I had by email, so everyone can play, and so I can pester you with more questions.

My question: What was the clue that led you to the extractor channel? What made you
check the channel?

'Tuner's answer: The fact that the hook on a stock extractor was held so far from the breechface that the wall wouldn't touch the rim. The pad was .140 inch, and I had to reduce it a full 64th inch to get it into position.
____________________

My question: How did you determine that the channel is the problem (in other words,
how can I test for this condition in the future?)

'Tuner's answer: I measured the length of the slide from fp stop to breechface and
subtracted half the thickness of the slot to determine how far off it was,
and compared the extractor length to Ordnance specs. I checked the channel
by dropping a ground pin of the right diameterinto the channel, and
eyeballing it to see if it was perpendicular to the floor...It was off far
enough that I could see it, but I've got an eye for symmetry. Somebody else might not be able to see an angle that small.
_________________

My question: How do you fix it? Fit the extractor differently?

'Tuner's answer: I relieved the front of the hook...the angle that was making contact with
the extractor groove...and radiused it a little.
_______________

My question: If so, how is the extractor fit to such a slide.

'Tuner's answer: By trying to compensate for the dimensions that are working against you.
The essence of hand-fitting. *wink*

Thanks, 'Tuner.

Now, of course, I have more questions, but after an apprenticeship of my own, and after training several apprentices, I know that over half the battle is asking the right question in the right way.

I must now retire to the Place Of Pizza, contemplate Pepperoni, and phrase my questions correctly.

 

[mpthole]

Hey guys! Just tagging along for the ride on this one as I have my own extractor issues. Working fine for now, but will need a new one in another couple thousand I'm sure... so maybe I'll ask for one for Christmas.

 

[Jim K]

Old Fuff wrote, "I don't think that S.A. would know a blueprint if they tripped over it, and I wonder if they even spot-check parts when they are received from vendors."

Golly, it was so nice in the old days when we had only Colts or GI guns to work on. We could sort of assume that the pieces were at least near spec. Now you first have to determine if the darn parts are anything like the right size before you can even begin to figure out what else is wrong.

And it isn't getting any better.

Jim

 

[Jammer Six]

OK, here's the rest of our exchange.

Since this was the first set of answers, I probably should have posted this first.

'Tuner said:

--------------
And the good news is....I think it's fixed! It was
a spec issue...but not in any one part and only one area was out of spec.
Tolerances stacking up in the wrong direction was causing the contact, and
the extractor lengths being right on the peg produced hard enough contact to
break the extractors.

Just to be sure we've eliminated everything...do your magazines have dimpled
followers? if the last round is jumping the follower and push-feeding, the hook will snap over
and cause premature failure. That dimple is important
in preventing that little trick...

The one spec problem that I did find was the
extractor channel itself wasn't bored straight, and angled away from the
breechface about .010 inch. I reduced the front pad to get tension on the
case rim, and almost removed the outboard center pad to let the extractor
spring like it should.
--------------

Nope, the magazines are seven round Wilson 47's. This is where you tell me that they have concave followers, and I say "well... OK... But I said SEVEN rounders" and you say...

Anyway, you get the picture. We did this last thread. I figure you're wanting to go through it again is because you're really old, but that's OK. It's why I'm bugging you for answers.

Now, the first question I have is what do you mean when you say the extractor channel was angled away from the breechface?

Doesn't the extractor channel run THROUGH the breechface?

 

[Jammer Six]

Studying all your answers yet again, I now see where you said in your post that the channel angled "...slightly to the right..." which means that when you say "...angled away from the breechface..." you mean away from the center of the breechface, right?

Now that I think it over, it could also mean that I don't know where the hell the breechface is, and that the channel is actually outside the breechface, and then every word you've said would be correct... :banghead:

When I discover an answer that means I'm wrong and the entire rest of the world is right, that usually means that I've found the real answer...

 

[1911Tuner]

It's in the Angles

LOL Jammer...you gotta tell me what you're smokin'.

Yeah...The channel is angled to the right away from the breechface centerline. I was tryin' to eat supper when I typed that...and the dogs were crowdin' me during their nightly game of seein' how much of my
food they can talk me out of...

Actually, the angled channel isn't all that uncommon...just not usually that
pronounced. I'd rather have one angle to the right than to the left.
Those are the ones that cause the hook to catch when ya try to take'em out...and ya gotta use a separate tool to spring it open and push it back
past the breechface at the same time...and that ain't the worst part...
Ya gotta file the wall deeper and shorten the hook so the cases can slip under the hook without hangin' up. It gets to be a mess sometimes.

I went back and put a slight compound angle on the backside of the hook, just at the top...to give it a little clearance when it twists off the hook
during ejection.

Another observation was that it was the first slide that I've ever used an Ed Brown extractor in that the butt-end of the extractor didn't stick out
past flush a 64th or so...Odd. Makes me suspect that maybe the firing pin stop slot was farther forward than it should be...which would also be a player in your contact issue with the case extractor groove. I'm gonna try to massage one of the extractors that you sent with it so you'll have a drop-in spare...so I may not be able to ship it back until Thursday. Depends on how things go today.

EDIT TO ADD:

Jim and Fuff...I miss the days when we could buy a GI extractor for two bucks...still in the paper...maybe tweak it a little, and stick it into a Colt
or an Ithaca, or a Rand...etc, etc...and except for a periodic cleaning, forget about it for years. I miss that. The good news is that I don't see problems like Jammer has very often. Or...maybe it's actually a little TOO often.
I guess it depends on how ya look at it.

Cheers all! Off to the range to bust a few hunnert..and that's always a good thing.

 

[1911Tuner]

Test Results

Two hunnert 'n' fifty rounds of PMC 230 hardball went down range this fine
North Carolina mornin'...and nary a hitch did the Jammergun suffer.

That Springfield slide rode tall on top of that Colt frame...and it did the old
girl proud. Old and New...East and West...Pete and Repeat...Frick and Frack all came together in an unlikely mating and harmony was abound
down at the ol' PHA range...

Ejection was lively at 2 O'clock, and the brass landed about 8 feet from the gun and slightly behind me. Slow-fire or as fast as I could pull the trigger...Two-handed or one...Limp grip or solid...All was well, and the redeemed top end should be wingin' its way back to Papa early tomorrow mornin'. I still gotta tweak the spare extractor...if it'll tweak enough to work...and clean everything up. Gotta take a li'l nap right now...It's been a while since 0300 hours, and I ain't as young as I used ta be.

Jammer...Ya still gotta get some proper magazines though.

Cheers all! The birds are singin' in the Carolinas!

 

[Jammer Six]

Will new followers suffice?

 

[1911Tuner]

Followers

Jammer asked:

Will new followers suffice?
-------------------------------

Yep...if the springs are good. Think Wolff 11-pound springs...

I also cleaned up the throat a little...Found a fairly deep toolmark. I couldn't get it all without goin' too deep, but it's not at a level that'll make a difference. Polished up pretty nicely too.

I knocked a burr off the lower lug feet. No problem...just seein' to details.

 

[1911Tuner]

Whoa Hoss!

Jammer! I just remembered....You said that you're usin' Wilson 47s and 47Ds...The springs are proprietary in those, and probably won't work well
with standard followers without some reengineering on the top coil.
McCormick Shooting Stars and Powermags' springs are compatible with standard followers, but the Shooting Stars' springs are a little soft for best function. The do okay in some guns...not so well in others.

 

[Jammer Six]

Thanks, 'Tuner

I'll probably be talking to Metalform sometime today.

How can I tell if the Wilson 47's are the problem?

How can I tell if the last round is being push fed?

I love my 47's, and I have a whole bunch of them. If I have to replace them, I'm going to need counseling...

 

[Dave Sample]

Very Interseting thread.

 

[1911Tuner]

Wilson

Howdy Jammer,

You don't need to lose the Wilson mags...just the springs and followers.
Think of all the bucks you'll save on the shrink...

I first noticed the tendency for slick-topped followers to push-feed the last round way back in the early 80s...when I picked up a little paperback written by Ken Hallock. He advised removing the dimples with a file so that the last round wouldn't "feed differently" than the others. This was in the days before I completely understood just what that dimple was for. My
ol' man had mentioned it, but like so much of his advice, I failed to heed it...
and paid the price. I proceeded to break 2 GI extractors in less than 3 months. The first sign that something was wrong was the failures to return to battery with the round in the chamber ahead of the extractor...
always on the last round. When the extractors softened up enough to allow the gun to go to battery, I figured that the problem had "worked itself out" and kept on truckin'...until the extractors failed.

I also noticed something. Being a reloader that considers brass as a precious metal, I rarely lost one. I noticed that, on a few cases, ther was a strange ding on the edges of the rims. It made some of the brass hard to
get into the shell holder, and it occured to me to do the math and find out
whether it was at random or once per magazine. It about once per mag,
so I proceeded to fire one at a time and check...It happened on the last round almost without fail. We didn't have Wolff 11-pound springs then,
and new springs helped...but not much. I also noticed that with the magazines that still had dimples, the last round didn't get dinged. Bein' a
little quicker than the average dummy, I added 2+2 and came up with the right answer.

That was when I began to accept that John Browning knew a liiiitle more about the pistol than I did...and he put several things on the gun that have a very good reason for being there...and that dimple is one of'em.

Fast forward to the age of hi-cap mags...and the poor old 1911 was stuck with only seven. The marketeers had to do something to keep up with the
Wondernine Set..and the Devel 8-round magazine came along. Some of us had already played with turning stock mags into 8-rounders by cuttin' the
follower leg off and clippin' the springs...It didn't work well because the follower would pitch forward when the rim grabbed the dimple. We removed the dimple, and the follower's rock'n'roll stopped...but the extractors started to break...among other little glitches. The split, spring steel Devel follower helped a little...but the problems still lingered...including the last round jumping the followers and laying loose in the port with the slide locked back. Wolff springs helped with that...but the push-feeds...and broken extractors... hung on like a Pitbull.
All this trouble...for one_extra_round!

 

[Jammer Six]

So it's a ding

So I'm looking for a ding on the edge of the rim on the last round?

The ding that is caused by the push feed, and then the extractor snapping over the rim?

Does it happen every time?

Can I go to the range, load one round in magazine, fire it, pick up the brass, and be looking at a rim with a ding?

 

[Jammer Six]

I have to think

Now you have me thinking.

This is where I can really screw things up...

If it's the dimple that prevents push feeds, how does that work?

Sitting here thinking it over, if the last round moves too fast without the dimple, it jumps up into the chamber in front of the extractor, and a push feed results.

The dimple slows it down just enough so that as the rim comes up out of the magazine, the extractor has had time to get there, and is already directly above it, so that as the upward edge of the rim hits the breechface, it's already behind the hook of the extractor, and has no choice but to roll up under it.

The problem I have with that is this: what, then, causes the other rounds to feed correctly?

They don't have the dimple to slow them down. They have a slick surface, the brass of the round under them, to ride on.

It seems to me that if the dimple prevents push feeds, the other six rounds in the magazine should all push feed, because they're not in contact with the dimple.

 

[1911Tuner]

Why ask Why?

>>They don't have the dimple to slow them down. They have a slick surface, the brass of the round under them, to ride on.<<
____________________


The others don't push-feed because of the extra spring tension they provide...and if the springs get weak enough, the push-feed will happen before the last round. The last round in the magazine is under minimum tension, and more susceptible to the inertial effects during recoil. That's
why extra-power springs help with a smooth follower...but they don't always keep the round from jumping the follower.

The dimple doesn't slow the round's forward movement...it stops it...
and if you'll slide one forward slowly, you'll notice that it also stops it right
at the feed lip release point.

Oddly enough...a heavier recoil spring makes it MORE likely to happen.

You won't see it happen by loading one round and firing it...You might by loading two rounds and firing both...and inspecting them. It may not ALWAYS do it...but even at one round every 50, it doesn't take long for an extractor problem to show up. Your first red flag will be premature loss of tension with a good extractor.

When the extractors were made of spring-tempered steel, they'd tolerate
snapover feeds better...but not forever. part of the reason that Browning specified spring steel was to allow for emergency single loading in the event of a lost magazine...but the gun was never intended to feed that way on a regular basis.

To get a better understanding of the dynamics imvolved, do a search on
"Inertia!" That should pull up a thread that I wrote up some time back.
I'll look for it too, incase you don't find it.

 

[Old Fuff]

Once upon a time in a land far, far away ….

John Browning was sitting under a tree and an apple fell on his head. He was dazed for a moment, but then said …

It has been revealed to me that in a box magazine all the cartridges are not fed with the same pressure underneath them because when the first round is chambered from a fully loaded magazine the spring is compressed, and when the last one feeds into the barrel the spring is relaxed. Consequently the last round is pushed up slower and less positively then the first one.

So he went forth and designed a magazine for his .45 pistol which, when it had a spring of proper tension, would hold up to 7 cartridges. But lo, as time passed those in the “new school†of pistol design which is with us today, decreed that we must have a magazine that holds 8 rounds in a space intended to only hold 7 – this being necessary because many members of the “new school†of thinking worship at the Church of Combat Gun-Games, where many, many shots are required to complete the course where a competitor must engage a whole army of bad-guy targets.

Of course there were some old fogies who refused to use the new magazines, and they were often rewarded with reliable functioning. Since most of them didn’t attend the Church of Combat Gun-Games they suffered no ill consequences. They do sometimes watch with amusement as “new school†adherents festoon their pistols with gadgets and gimmicks of questionable value – and then complain because they don’t work anymore.

I know that this is a very radical suggestion, and probably should never be broached in public, but anyway – I will throw caution and judgment to the wind, and ask …

Why not try using magazines that are the way the pistol’s inventor designed them? I believe that those among us who shoot other makes and models of pistols usually use the original manufacturer’s magazines or other exact equivalents. Do they perhaps know something the rest of us don’t?

I will return to my cave and think upon this. Perhaps if I am lucky an apple will fall on my head.

 

[1911Tuner]

Magazines-Part Deux

Fuff suggested:

Why not try using magazines that are the way the pistol’s inventor designed them?
___________________

You BETTER crawl in that cave, and go deep! Wilson and McCormick are gonna hunt you down after that brash statement...

Included in Jammer's overnight delivery is a proper magazine that he can use until he gets squared away with a few. I also did a little tweak on the front of the extractor hook to let it tolerate the occasional snapover without
snappin' the hook off. The test was to drop a round into the chamber...ease the slide forward until the extractor stopped against the rim...and pushing the slide with my thumb. It popped right over the rim
with about 10 pounds of force. Not so that it can be abused, mind you...
but just in case. See...I'm anal-retentive over reliability.

Welp...Gotta git crackin'!

Cheers all!