Just a Thought on History of Calibers

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bersaguy

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This may be common knowledge, or a coincidence, but something I've just noticed.
As I have started casting in the past year and getting acquainted with sizes and weight, and also looking at the possibility of a BP revolver in my future, I got to thinking of why handguns have typically gravitated to either 44/45 or 35/36 caliber. You would get approximately 50 round lead balls to the pound at 45 caliber, and 100 round lead balls to the pound at 36 caliber. Or in other words a 44 or 45 is a 50 guage and 36 is a 100 guage. Does this convention go all the way back to the old English system of bore sizing? Now, I know today we have firearms in nearly every imaginable caliber, but for quite some time the Army caliber was 44 and Navy was 36, and still today the most popular calibers are 45(.429-.452) and 36(.355-.357)
 
Interestingly, a .36 caliber BP revolver like the 1858 Remington uses .375” round balls. .45 caliber does not cover the span .429 - .452. The .429-430 sequence is for the .44 cartridges.
A .440” lead round ball for a .45 load weights about 138 grains so, yeah, about 50 gauge.
LRBs for the .36 caliber Remington, actually .375 caliber, are about 80 gauge.
 
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380 / 38 Super / 357 Sig and (but) the bullet diameter on those is .355 o_O
That is like calling a piece of wood 2x4 but it does not measure 2x4
read <---- what word is that, don't know till its used in a sentence. Why was that ever allowed.
My thought on history is I wasn't there to vote on it, but rarely know what would be popular anyway ... (beanie babies)
38 Super is 9mm magnum and 9mm is 380 magnum. :neener:
 
That is like calling a piece of wood 2x4 but it does not measure 2x4
read <---- what word is that, don't know till its used in a sentence. Why was that ever allowed.
My thought on history is I wasn't there to vote on it, but rarely know what would be popular anyway ... (beanie babies)
38 Super is 9mm magnum and 9mm is 380 magnum

Lumber is measured by its nominal "green cut" dimensions. As wood dries it loses around 1/4" in dimension, just irregularly. So, the mills would surface the material by planing to get it to 'known" dimensions. So, the green timber would be saw ripped to 4" then sliced in 2" sticks. After aging and drying the mill would plane the product to 1 5/8" x 3 5/8" and stack it for retail sale. The end customer buys the material per its original "board foot" dimensions, not its final dimensions (which can keep changing as the wood dries & seasons). When pressure-treating became common, the actual dimensions were 'shrunk' today's actuals, so a 2x4 is now 1.5 x 3.5".

Back to actual topic--.38super is the hotter cousin to the .38acp (which was JMB's version of 9x23 just with a semi-rimmed case). Just about everyone in and around 1900 developed a 9x23, as it could still be used with black powder (still a consideration at the time). Georg Luger would cobble up the 9x19 in 1902.

The .380acp would appear in 1909, very much as a 9mm 'short' ("kurtz" in German), and not vice versa.
Now, the .375mag was created as an improvement of the venerable .38spl.
Also, there is a 9mm winchester magnum (9x29) which was created in the 1970s.
 
So, these were more or less the firearms that got me thinking about this
20210228_155618.jpg Screenshot_20210228-155329_Chrome.jpg
I'm talking about arms that go as far back as the 1700's where the difference between a .429 and .452 would have been close enough to make no difference. Just got me thinking is this why 44(ish) and 36(ish) became the standards for pistols. That a pound of lead would give a soldier 50 or 100 shots respectively
 
bersaguy, your question is fascinating.
I'm not sure you're on the right track, and I'm not sure you're on the wrong one, either.

Recall all the Kentucky or Pennsylvania muzzle loading rifles of the late 18th and 19th Centuries were "36" caliber. "40", "45" and "50" calibers were popular as well. From where was the criteria for any caliber derived?

During the age of black powder, larger bore diameters were found to be useful as muzzle velocity was limited. With the upper limit of velocity (due to the burning characteristics of BP) the only way to get more power from a "36 caliber ball" was to fire a "37 caliber ball" at the same maximum velocity. Or a 40 caliber or bigger, like 69 caliber.
With the technology of measurement and machining at the time, the 69 caliber (used in many military muskets) was pretty much a suggestion. Since the projectiles were typically pure lead (or close enough) anything near enough to stuff down the bore was 'good enough'. Many early handguns (single shot and repeater) were much the same; even now a soft .358" bullet will be sized in the process of shooting through a .356" barrel. (Such a bullet turned from tool steel might be uncomfortable, but it doesn't occur often.)

I have not researched the date of discovery, but I'm reasonable sure 'conical bullets' (not round balls, but longer, pointy on the front, flatish on the back) became available prior to the U. S. Civil War. This added length, adding weight (more lead) to the projectile, so one could have bullets of more weight than that of round balls. Resulting in more kinetic and momentum energy. In the same era (generally) measurement was developed. Then with the change to cartridge ammo and the alteration from 'outside lubrication' to 'inside lubrication' the gun builders started understanding that many commonly named cartridges were misnamed on a technicality.

So the .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers evolved in the .38 caliber handguns. Or in Europe to 9mm. 44 Special (and Magnum) are .429" but the .44-40 or .44 Winchester Central Fire (.44 WCF) are officially sized .427". .45 Colt revolver was set at .454" initially, and the later .45 ACP at .452" (.451" in some minds); the .45-70 Springfield rifle and the later .458 Winchester Magnum are .458".

The 'guage' method you mention was generally phased out. There are still shotguns identified and called "[something] guage" but all the plans and blue prints have specific English or Metric measurements. And the loads no longer have much semblance to 1/12th, or 1/20th of a pound of lead.

Seems to me all relation to the older gauge system is gone.

Revolvers and handguns in general have larger bore diameters as a heavier bullet can be used. And a .32 bore handgun (.32 ACP for example) is roughly the same diameter as .30 caliber rifles. Even a .30 caliber Speer 100 grain half jacket bullet is just barely - if at all - capable to be loaded into a .32 ACP case with a powder charge and then be loaded in a pistol magazine. Frankly, it would not be possessed of any useful velocity or power. Something in the .357 Magnum category is probably minimal for self defense in all cases and many think the blast and recoil are severe.

Now, back on track; a .36 caliber black powder revolver is not by any stretch a raging power house. It did have more reach than a Bowie knife but was less effective than the knife in application.

Always fascinating to consider "What were they thinking?"
 
I've known about that system used to determine shotgun bore diameter, but never heard it applied to rifles. Perhaps it was used at one time to define muzzle loading rifles. But when it comes to modern cartridges I don't think that or any other rule applies. It seems the inventor could use any system they chose to use
 
As an aside, a couple of other inaccurate caliber designations:
.44-40 is actually 42 caliber, and .38-40 is actually 40 caliber.

Why? No idea.

Both were used in Colt revolvers and Winchester lever actions.
 
"Bore" is still a thing in England today as far as shotguns are concerned. On my current Firearms Certificate all three components are listed as "12 bore" (the shotgun, the slugs and the suppressor, which must all be listed on my particular certificate).
 
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