Black Powder Calibers....

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I know caliber and actual size has always been somewhat of a mystery game being played. If you want to call it that.

But for cap n ball revolvers of the 1800’s why is a .44 caliber really a 45? The ball sized used is a .454 yet if you do a conversion cylinder, it’s known as a 45 long colt, and the typical size of that bull it is .452. Which is .002 smaller then the ball, yet the ball is known as a .44 and the cartridge bullet is Known as a 45? Speaking of which he 454 Casull is named that because the bullet is .454.

Not much difference with the 36 caliber cap n ball, which has conversion cylinders for 38 special!
 
Why is a 38Special really 357? Why is 45/70 458 but 45 "Long Colt" 452?

Who knows? Marketing? Sounds cool? I've never heard a good answer to this question. The best rationale I've heard is that gun making is one industry that came from artisan roots with individual gunsmiths making their own styles and using their own measuring standards and that has somewhat carried over into the industry today.
 
Well, there is a .32 Smith & Wesson Long, but there isn't a .32 S&W Short.
It is just .32 S&W, period.
Don't expect consistency in an old and complicated business.

And every once in a while we will see a picture of a short case headstamped .45 Colt. Not Short Colt vs Long Colt, but still a short and a long cartridge.
 
Wish folks would quit calling the 45Colt a 45Long Colt. 45Long Colt, does that mean some where back in time there was a 45 Short Colt.
Rant over.
“Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2016/09/45-colt-vs-45-long-colt/#ixzz6KCYPHPZM
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

Colt vs 45 Long Colt History

The year was 1873 and Colt's latest handgun, the Model P (aka as the Single Action Army Revolver of 1873) was just awarded the contract as the official sidearm for the US Army. The chambering selected was a .45 caliber black powder cartridge manufactured by the Union Metallic Cartridge Company of Bridgeport, CT.

Based on the slightly older 44 Colt round, this new cartridge used the same rebated heel type bullet. It was named the 45 Colt and all was right with the world.
Two years later Army units began adopting the Smith & Wesson Schofield Revolver for use as an alternate sidearm.

Schofield-Revolver-.45-Colt-and-Others-Ammo-433x600.jpg
Schofield Revolver .45 Colt and Others Ammo
This revolver was based on Smith & Wesson's Third Model top break revolver and as such offered an advantage by being faster to load and unload when compared to the Colt.

Unfortunately, the revolver used a shorter proprietary cartridge that soon created a problem of logistics. Cases of ordinance were simply marked “Pistol, 45 caliber”. The longer rounds were being shipped to units that were armed with the M1875 Schofields and the end result was that the longer rounds would not chamber in these revolvers.

The Colt shooters could easily use the shorter Smith & Wesson cartridge, so the quartermasters began referring to the Colt round as “45 Long Colt”. The Frankford Arsenal ended up dropping the longer round from production in 1887 and solely manufactured the 45 S&W round as the “.45 caliber M1887 Military Ball Cartridge“ until 1892 when it was replaced by the 38 Long Colt round in a new double action pistol.


For about a decade the moniker 45 Long Colt was applicable when differentiating between the two rounds but by the dawn of the 20th century the Schofield had long been retired and sold on the surplus market, by the end of World War 2, both revolvers were becoming distant memories and Colt's latest offering that proved itself in the Second World War (the M1911 chambered in 45 ACP) was becoming the new favorite among shooters.

However, after World War 2, a cultural phenomenon occurred that changed the shooting world as we knew it: Television and more specifically, programs themed as Westerns took the American imagination by storm.

Viewers wanted to own the guns shown on television, specifically, the Colt Single Action Army Revolver. Colt had ceased production at the onset of the war, but soon tooled up to make the classic revolver again and offered it in its original chambering: the 45 Colt!“
 
A lot of the confusion on cartridge nomenclature stems from the percussion pistol era. After a deciding to use a conical instead of a round ball they went with a heel bullet which allowed easy loading and a paper cartridge to be wrapped around the heel. The heel of the .375(or 38)36 Navy was .358 and the 44(actually .45) was 427/428. These same heel bullets were later loaded into brass cartridges(which took the place of the previous paper) but the outside lubed bullets needed a better solution. They went to an inside lube bullet which kept the heel diameter--.358 for the 38's and .427 for the 44's(really 45's). Eventually the barrel diameters were reduced to reflect the change in bullet diameter. I left out a lot but that's it in a nutshell.
As far as the 45 Colt controversy, take a look at the latest issue of Handloader magazine(#325) and the article about "All American 45's" by Mike Venturino. He documents three actual 45 factory cases. One was the standard length 45 Colt case with the .502 rim. The next was the shorter 45 S&W case with a .522 rim. Then there was a Remington-UMC case that had the 1.10 case length of the S&W round but the .502 rim of the 45 Colt. These cases and boxes they came in were marked 45 Colt but were indeed a "short" 45 Colt in every thing but name. So I guess if you wanted the longer 45 Colt, what did you ask for?
 
Howdy

A correction:

The year was 1873 and Colt's latest handgun, the Model P (aka as the Single Action Army Revolver of 1873) was just awarded the contract as the official sidearm for the US Army. The chambering selected was a .45 caliber black powder cartridge manufactured by the Union Metallic Cartridge Company of Bridgeport, CT.

Based on the slightly older 44 Colt round, this new cartridge used the same rebated heel type bullet. It was named the 45 Colt and all was right with the world.
Two years later Army units began adopting the Smith & Wesson Schofield Revolver for use as an alternate sidearm.


The 45 Colt cartridge was not developed by UMC, and it never used a heeled bullet. When the first Army contract was awarded to Colt in 1873 for 8,000 'strap pistols', as they were called at the time, the Army directed the Frankford Arsenal to supply ammunition to Colt. A letter was sent to Frankford Arsenal on September 13, 1873 directing the Arsenal to supply 50,000 rounds of ammunition to Colt for testing so the revolvers could be proof tested and tested for function before inspection and shipping to the Springfield Armory in Springfield MA. Unfortunately the Frankford Arsenal, which was run by the Army, was not able to fulfill the order for some time, and shipped ammunition to Colt in dribs and drabs. It was not until October 25 that Frankford Arsenal was able to ship all of the 50,000 rounds of ammunition to Colt. Part of the problem was the Arsenal was not able to obtain enough copper to make the cartridges. The first version of the 45 Colt cartridge used copper, not brass, for the cartridge case. More on that in a minute. Because of the delays in obtaining ammunition, delays were experienced in proof testing, which also delayed inspection, so it took a while before Colt could supply the 8,000 revolvers of the first order to the Army. (By the way, the Army eventually contracted with Colt a total of 13 times for shipments of the SIngle Actoin Army to the government, the last contract was signed on September 19, 1890.) This information all came from A Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver by John Kopec, probably the most authoritative book that exists about the Colt SAA.


Yes, the 44 Colt cartridge used a heeled bullet. The 44 Colt cartridge was developed by Frankford Arsenal in 1868. It was developed for Colt's Richard's Conversion revolver, the first of which were made by converting 1860 Army Cap & Ball revolvers to shoot metallic cartridges. This is an actual Colt Richard's Conversion. Pictured with it are 4 original 44 Colt cartridges. As has been stated before, the old convention for calling out caliber was to use the diameter of the lands of the rifling, not the grooves. Yes, these revolvers actually had groove diameters of around .451, but since the convention was to call out caliber by bore dimension, the actual diameter the bore had been bored before rifling was cut, they were called 44 caliber revolvers.

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A closer view of the Richards Conversion and the 4 original 44 Colt rounds.

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The 44 Colt cartridge was simply developed to fill up the chambers of a 44 Cap & Ball revolver. A .451 diameter bullet fits perfectly into the chamber throats the rest of the cartridge was designed to be fill up the rest of the chamber. The powder charge was about 21 grains of powder. (Slight correction. There were no chamber throats in the Richards Conversion. The chambers were bored through with one diameter the whole length, because they had been converted from Cap & Ball cylinders. It was only after cartridges started being manufactured with bullets the same diameter as the inside of the cartridge case that cylinder chambers began having chamber throats.)

A close up of a 44 Colt cartridge and an early 45 Colt cartridge. Notice the 44 Colt bullet is the same diameter as the outside of the case. This is true of all cartridges using heeled bullets, including modern 22 Short, Long, and Long Rifle ammunition.

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A stalled project of mine is making up cartridges for my Richards Conversion revolver. If you look carefully you will see the heel of the bullets (the last part behind the rear lube groove, is slightly smaller in diameter than the rest of the bullets. The heels on these bullets are running around .426 in diameter, the main bodies are running around .447, which is actually a little bit small to fill up the .451 rifling of the revolver. I need to open up the mold slightly to get .451 diameter bullets, but unfortunately because of the lead level in my blood my doctor has forbidden me to do any more bullet casting for a while. I did take the liberty of shoving one of my bullets into modern Starline 44 Colt brass, and the fit of the heel into the case is very good.

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Interestingly enough, the first 44 Colt cartridges produced by the Frankford Arsenal used copper cases and Benét priming. This is what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned the copper cases used for the first 45 Colt cartridges. The two cartridges on the left in this photo are 45 Colt cartridges. The one on the far left is one of my reloads, the one next to it is a Benét primed, copper cased, 45 Colt cartridge of the type being produced by the Frankford Armory at the time the 50,000 rounds of ammunition were requested. By the way, the two cartridges on the right are 45 Schofield cartridges, a Benét primed round and one of my reloads.

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Stephen Vincent Benét was a career Army officer. Not the poet, the poet was his grandson. Anyway, at the time Benét was the commander of the Frankford Arsenal. Benét priming is named after him. Benét priming was developed at the time that metallic cartridges were still being developed, and there were several different competing designs.

This is a view of several Benét primed cartridges. On the left is a 45 Colt, next to it is a 45 Schofield. Most interesting is the sectioned case on the right showing the construction. Notice the folded construction of the case head. There was no visible primer on the outside of a Benét primed cartridge, the priming was internal. The priming compound was deposited onto the bottom surface of the case. An Anvil Plate was then placed on top of the priming compound and held in place by two crimps on either side of the case. When the firing pin struck the back of the case, the soft copper deformed and compressed the priming compound against the Anvil Plate. This ignited the priming compound and the resulting flame passed through the two holes in the Anvil Plate, igniting the main powder charge. Because there was no visible primer at the rear of the case, they resembled RImfire cases, but they were not. They were Center Fire.

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This is a box of Benét primed cartridges that left the Frankford Arsenal in 1874. Notice the lack of visible primers. Notice too these rounds only had 30 grains of powder in them because the original 40 grain load was deemed to produce too much recoil.

I will say it once more. The early Benét primed 45 Colt cartridges, and all the 45 Colt cartridges manufactured ever since, did not use heeled bullets. They used a conventional bullet with the outer diameter of the bullet the same diameter as the inner diameter of the case, just like almost all modern cartridges. The exception being 22 Rimfire ammuntion.

Why not a heeled bullet? The problem with heeled bullets was the bullet lubrication was applied to grooves on the outside of the bullet where it would engage the rifling of the barrel. Black Powder bullet lube tended to be soft and gooey, and would attract dirt and lint. Modern 'inside lubed' bullets, such as developed for the 44 Russian cartridge kept the bullet lube inside the cartridge, where it would not be contaminated by dirt or lint, but would still engage the barrel rifling.

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Regarding the S&W Schofield revolver, I have often heard of mixups with 45 Colt ammo going to outfits that were issued 45 Schofield revolvers, but I have never seen any documentation of this actually happening.

The reason the Schofield round was shorter than the 45 Colt round is simple. S&W started making Top Break revolvers in 1869 as soon as the Rollin White patent for revolvers with chambers bored through to accept cartridges expired. The first such revolver was the 44 Caliber American model. A cartridge was developed for this revolver with approximately the same outside dimensions of the 44 Henry Rimfire round. This cartridge eventually became known as the 44 American cartridge, and yes it did use a heeled bullet, just like the Henry round before it. The cylinder of this model was 1 7/16" long, just the right length for the new cartridge. The Army bought 1000 of these new S&W Top Break revolvers, the first cartridge revolvers they ever bought. When Colt started working on what eventually became the Single Action Army, the stipulation from the Army was the cartridge had to be 45 caliber. Consequently the 45 Colt cartridge was developed, with its legendary 40 grain capacity. The cylinder length of the Colt was about 1.600, close to 1 5/8" long. Meanwhile S&W had extensive contracts with the Russian government to produce the Russian Model Top Break Revolver. Eventually S&W sold over 150,000 revolvers to the Russian government. Around 1875 S&W, not wanting to be left out of lucrative American government contrasts, approached the Army. The Army still wanted a 45 caliber cartridge, but agreed a shorter cartridge that would fit the 1 7/16" long cylinder would be acceptable. Why did S&W not build a revolver with a longer cylinder? Because they would have had to come up with new tooling for a longer cylinder and frame, and they did not want to disrupt the lucrative contracts they had with the Russian government. So the 45 Schofield cartridge was developed. Eventually only about 9000 Schofield revolvers were produced, with about 8,000 of them going to the Army.

Here is a photo showing some of the cartridges I have mentioned. Left to right, they are 44-40, 44 Henry Rimfire, 44 S&W American, 44 Russian, 44 Colt, 44 Special, and 45 Colt. These are all old cartridges except the 44 Special which I threw in just to show the length. Because Black Powder cartridges of this era were completely filled with powder, the comparative lengths of the cases is a good indicator of the relative power of each of these cartridges. Notice the 44 Henry, 44 American, and 44 Colt rounds all have visible lube grooves. You can see that each of these bullets is the same outside diameter as the cases, unlike the inside lubricated 44-40, 44 Russian, 44 Special and 45 Colt. They all use bullets the same diameter as the inside of he case.

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Interestingly enough, after S&W finished the Russian contracts, they made the New Model Number Three and 44 Double Action revolvers with two different lengths of cylinder; 1 7/16" and 1 9/16". The 1 9/16" cylinders were long enough for the longer 38-40 and 44-40 cartridges. S&W Top Break revolvers were never chambered for 45 Colt. The New Model Number Three was chambered for a total of 13 different cartridges, but never chambered for 45 Colt.
 
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Why is the .44 Spl./.44 Mag .429?

Because starting around 1870 or so the 44 Russian cartridge used a .429 diameter bullet. Then in 1908 the 44 Special was created by lengthening the case about 1/10 inch but using the same .429 diameter bullet. Then around 1956, working with Remington, S&W created the 44 Magnum cartridge by lengthening the case another 1/10" or so, with the same .429 diameter bullet. The 44 Mag, just like the 357 Mag, has a case long enough so the cartridge cannot be chambered in an earlier 44 Special or 38 Special revolver.
 
Guys, Cartridge Nomenclature is not an exact science. The guy who develops the cartridge gets to name it what ever he wants.

Why do the 222 Remington and 223 Remington both use .224 diameter bullets? Because they do. The actual name of the cartridges does not reflect the actual diameter of the bullet.

I could say the same about the old 44-40. Traditionally, the groove diameter of 44-40 was .427, but it could vary widely all over the place. Recently, most modern revolvers and rifles chambered for 44-40 use .429 diameter barrel. I have five rifles chambered for 44-40 and I have slugged them all. Some are antiques and some are modern, and some of the antiques have .427 barrels and some have .429 barrels.

How about 38-40? It ain't a 38 at all, I use bullets sized to .401 for my antique revolvers and rifles chambered for 38-40. Some wags have said that it is reversed, 38-40 actually held 38 grains of powder and was 40 caliber. The truth is, 38-40 was developed when sales of Model 1873 Winchester rifles started to decline. Up until that time the only cartridge the '73 was chambered for was 44-40. So Oliver Winchester directed his designers to come up with a new cartridge for the '73 to boost sales. 38-40 '73 sales never were all that high, the second most popular chambering for the '73 was 32-20, so Winchester's marketing attempt did not play out. Why was it called 38-40? Perhaps because it rolled off the tongue better than 40-40. Nobody knows.
 
But for cap n ball revolvers of the 1800’s why is a .44 caliber really a 45? The ball sized used is a .454 yet if you do a conversion cylinder, it’s known as a 45 long colt, and the typical size of that bull it is .452. Which is .002 smaller then the ball, yet the ball is known as a .44 and the cartridge bullet is Known as a 45? Speaking of which he 454 Casull is named that because the bullet is .454.

Well first, the original name was due to the size of the round when it exited the revolver. AND the size of the ball could be .454 or the size of the round ball could be .451/.452

As pointed out the actual name of the cartridge which is in the conversion cylinders is .45 Colt. OR you can shoot .45 Schofield o_O

.454 Casull
is named that because that's what the inventor/designer wanted. He could've called it the .45 Super Magnum or the .45 Ultra Magnum, or maybe the .45 Rhino, or even the .45 Thor's Hammer.

Not much difference with the 36 caliber cap n ball, which has conversion cylinders for 38 special!

Actually .358 bullets in a .36 cap-n-ball conversion suffer from accuracy unless they have a skirted or "hollow base", because the actual round ball for the .36 (which is a real .36) is .375.:confused: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010593193?pid=287589

Remember back then they often named the revolver caliber for what the bullet was when it came out of the muzzle. The skirted base lead bullets flare when fired and do a better job engaging the rifling. However, the .36 revolvers already sold for Cowboy Action Shooting as "conversions" to .38 Special actually have adjusted bores for the modern .357 bullets. You can't convert them back without a new barrel. ;)

LD
 
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