Just because someone is beating you up, doesn't necessarily mean you can stab him

[Jeff White]

Had an interesting fight over in Salem the other night. Apparently two of our areas less then upstanding citizens got into a fight last Sunday night. In the heat of battle one of them was stabbed by the other:
http://www.wjbdradio.com/news_view.asp?WEBID=4325

1/9/05 Two Arrested in Salem Stabbing
Salem Police say both those involved in an early Sunday morning altercation that led to a stabbing have now been arrested.

The victim of the stabbing----20-year-old Tyler McMullin of West Olive in Salem---was arrested as he got out of Salem Township Hospital following treatment of the stab wound to his chest. He was picked up on Marion and Clinton County warrants for failure to appear in court for possession of drug paraphernalia. McMullin is also expected to be charged in connection with the altercation.

Meanwhile, the person who allegedly stabbed McMullin----17-year-old Travis Juds of West Chestnut in Odin---was arrested earlier and is being held in the Marion County Jail for aggravated battery.

Police say the incident occurred just after midnight near the intersection of Clark and North Marion Street. The weapon involved is described by Police as a large pocket knife. Police have not released information on any possible motive.

Both have now been charged with aggravated battery and battery:
http://www.wjbdradio.com/news_view.asp?WEBID=4343

1/10/05 Two Men Involved in Salem Stabbing Formally Charged
Formal charges have been filed against both men involved in a Sunday morning altercation in Salem that led to a stabbing.

17-year-old Travis Juds of South Chestnut in Odin had bond set at $5,000 for aggravated battery and unlawful possession of drug paraphernalia. The person stabbed, 21-year-old Lloyd McMullen of Imperial, Missouri, had bond set at $10,000 on a battery charge.

Marion County State's Attorney Matt Wilzbach says he charged the victim of the stabbing because he had followed Juds outside a home and was beating him up at the time Juds stabbed him in the chest with a pocket knife. The incident occurred near Marion and Rogers Streets.

Meanwhile, Wilzbach says he will move to strike a violation of civil rights filed by McMullin against Marion County Jail officials. McMullin claims jail officials showed deliberate indifference to him by refusing to give him prescribed medication to ease pain and discomfort for the stab wound violating his civil rights.

Wilzbach says any such allegations would have to be taken up in federal court and not by the judge handling a criminal case.

Both Juds and McMullen were treated for their injuries following the altercation.

The entire incident was reviewed before it was decided to charge both men. Just because an action may intially look like a good case of self defense, if your actions contributed to starting the fight, you may be charged.

Occasionally a member will post a question about being at a party where some drunk was talking smack about his girlfriend or some other issue and fight broke out...and would it be self defense if he used his CCW or the folder in his pocket. There are usually plenty of members who will chime in with the great advice about not putting yourself in that situation. This is an example of why you shouldn't.

Jeff

 

[R.H. Lee]

Have 'em blow the breathalyzer and charge anybody with a readable bac that'd be my take on the matter. Release anybody who hadn't been drinking.

 

[pax]

Jeff,

The only information in the articles you posted that seems to pertain to whether or not the stabber's actions were self-defense is this:

Marion County State's Attorney Matt Wilzbach says he charged the victim of the stabbing because he had followed Juds outside a home and was beating him up at the time Juds stabbed him in the chest with a pocket knife.

-- and that, of course, sounds rather more in Juds' favor than not.

What are they basing the decision to charge Juds upon? Obviously there's a lot that didn't make the papers. What'd he do wrong?

pax

 

[f4t9r]

The only reason I can think of would be He started the Fight in the first place

 

[JGReed]

Actually this is a good case study for those who claim they'll shoot an unarmed attacker because "fists can kill." Absent a VERY obvious disparity of force (the classic 90lb old lady versus the 280lb thug) or significant injuries from the attack, if someone uses deadly force against an unarmed attacker they'll almost certainly be charged. They jury may find them not guilty, but the DA will take it to trial.

 

[Jeff White]

pax,
From what I've been able to find out, the fight started in the house, and continued in the street where the stabbing occurred. The situation seemed similar to some of the threads I mentioned, where an altercation started and the investigation revealed that both parties involved were at fault.

If you start a fight, then in the process of getting your clock cleaned, you stab or shoot the guy you're fighting with, don't expect to walk away scott free because you acted in self defense. If you take a verbal exchange and it escaltes to fists, the fact that you stabbed or shot the other party to win the fight, isn't going to automatically make it self defense.

Jeff

 

[sm]

BTT

Worth Everyone reading - more than once I might add.

 

[Warren]

Our DA here in Butte county does things a little differently.

I remember back a few years when a street-person who was a candidate for city council and some other scumwad barfly got into a knife fight and stabbed each other the DA declined to press any charges as it was "mutual combat".

 

[wheelgunslinger]

BTT

Worth Everyone reading - more than once I might add.

+1

"Don't start none, there won't be none." as they used to say in my old neighborhood.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

A prosecutor told us at a CCW class:

"If you initiate an encounter, FORGET pleading self-defense."

 

[Pilgrim]

A prosecutor told us at a CCW class:

"If you initiate an encounter, FORGET pleading self-defense."

Generally, that is true but it depends on the state. In CA, an attacker can regain the right to self-defense if he makes an honest attempt to break contact and leave the fight.

 

[mmike87]

I'm wondering WHY he was getting beaten up. If the "victim" that used the knife played an active role is causing the altercation, then I think that makes a difference.

Someone walking up and punching you does not usually constitute a threat to your life. I think in most states that you can use necessary force to protect yourself, and in this case he probably would have been justified in punching the guy back.

In a nutshell I wonder if this 17 year old was as much of a victim as he claims to be.

 

[mmike87]

Generally, that is true but it depends on the state. In CA, an attacker can regain the right to self-defense if he makes an honest attempt to break contact and leave the fight.

Virginia has no duty to retreat EXCEPT when you were part of the cause of the problem. If you initiate a fistfight, and the other guy pulls out a gun and shoots at you, and you try and retreat, but then are forced to shoot back, technically it would still be justified.

HOWEVER - that's not a situation I'd like to be in. I try and avoid any and ALL confrontations with anyone while armed.

Sometimes being armed means you have to be the bigger man and walk away.

 

[HankB]

In my CHL class they talked a little about people who "agree to fight." Briefly, it usually involves a few cross words at first. Then the words become more heated. Then threats come from both parties. This escalates into one guy daring the other - or both guys daring each other - to "Go ahead and make me . . . " shut up or whatever.

At this point, fists usually start flying. Who's at fault? Well, both are, because both of them escalated the situation, in essence, they agreed to fight.

If one of these gents has a concealed weapon and uses it, he'll have a very difficult time trying to justify it in court, since he had a part in escalating the conflict. Maybe, just maybe, it was something like this which happened in the story from the first post.

Have 'em blow the breathalyzer and charge anybody with a readable bac that'd be my take on the matter. Release anybody who hadn't been drinking.

How do you make them blow the breathalyzer if they're not behind the wheel? Years back, cops tried to have a friend of mine do this, assuming he'd been doing some underage drinking (he had ) - but as he was the passenger in a car, not the driver, he was able to refuse, and make the refusal stick.

HOWEVER - that's not a situation I'd like to be in. I try and avoid any and ALL confrontations with anyone while armed.

Wise policy. I'm usually armed, and I'm very careful NOT to respond, to, say a road-rager by flipping him the bird or whatever. I wave, smile, shrug, and make him think I'm apologizing for whatever he thinks I did. If there's any escalation to the point where I may have to employ deadly force, I want to be sure that all the escalation comes from the other guy.

 

[geekWithA.45]

IIRC, there was a SCOTUS case in the early 1900ish that established that breaking contact and walking away renewed one's right of self defense, even if the walkee had some part in the initial confrontation.

The doctrine states that by pursuing the walkee, the pursuer opens up a new confrontation.

I'm not certain as to the jurisdictions to which this doctrine applies.

 

[geekWithA.45]

A prosecutor told us at a CCW class:

"If you initiate an encounter, FORGET pleading self-defense."

I would actually think he meant, "if you initiate HOSTILITIES".

For example:

Guy A: "Excuse me. Do you know where the bus stop is?"
Guy B: "Get out of my face!"
Guy A: "OK, geez, I just asked a question."
Guy B: "That's it! There can be only one!" {pulls sword out of air}
Guy A: Blam.

 

[cosine]

I would actually think he meant, "if you initiate HOSTILITIES".

For example:

Guy A: "Excuse me. Do you know where the bus stop is?"
Guy B: "Get out of my face!"
Guy A: "OK, geez, I just asked a question."
Guy B: "That's it! There can be only one!" {pulls sword out of air}
Guy A: Blam.

I know what you mean, geek, but after he snarls "get out of my face" I'd leave without making any more comments.

 

[NineseveN]

I rule this a good stab! Damn JBT's and their "laws"!

Okay, just kidding, back on topic.

No really, I'm kidding...

 

[Guntalk]

"Police say the incident occurred just after midnight near the intersection of Clark and North Marion Street."

Want to stay safe? Be home before the evening news.

Seriously.

 

[Smurfslayer]

If you start a fight, then in the process of getting your clock cleaned, you stab or shoot the guy you're fighting with, don't expect to walk away scott free because you acted in self defense. If you take a verbal exchange and it escaltes to fists, the fact that you stabbed or shot the other party to win the fight, isn't going to automatically make it self defense.

MMike87 is right on VA. Under the common law there are two accepted "affirmative defenses" to a death resulting from a self defense claim.
Affirmative defenses require that you admit to the crime and prove that the crime was either justified, or excusable.


Justifiable homicide: You are blameless in the conflict, are attacked without provocation, reasonably fear for your life or 'great bodily harm'.

Excusable homicide: You participate in some manner in bringing on the conflict, however, if upon the attempt to withdraw from the conflict you are again put in fear of great bodily harm or death, and you have made clear your desire for peace, but must defend yourself.

FWIW, a very good "stand your ground" bill has been introduced in this year's General Assembly session...

Even under the light of Florida's law, I'd bet both would still be arrested here...

 

[Soybomb]

Is it just my perception or do we seem to be having a small rise in hooligans around here? It seems like there have been more break-ins around here for both homes and businesses, and a little more violence, but the violence seems drug related and usually around where the drug activity is.