Just One Question On A SBR

[Deadeye95]

Hey Folks,
I"m brand new so please cut me a little slack if I sound totally out there. I've heard so many things about building, assembling, manufacturing, etc. a SBR that my head is spinning. I have actually quite a few questions but will start with just one, which depending on how it is answered may answer quite a few more. Here Goes;
If I have a stripped lower receiver for a standard AR-15 and I put on this stripped lower a complete PISTOL buffer assembly, test it and see that it functions correctly, and THEN onto this lower I place a complete Commando upper with a 11.5" barrel and it runs as it is supposed to, in semi-auto only mode, do I have a LEGAL AR-15 pistol. Or is it considered an illegal SBR? Keeping in mind that the buffer assembly is pistol and no collabpsable (spelling) stock is attached. Or, do I have to do an ATF Form 1 and register this as a SBR and then I can attach any stock that I choose. I've been told so many different things that I don't know what to do. The only thing I do know is I don't want to go to jail for 10 years and I sure don't have $250000 laying around to give to uncle sugar.
Does this question sort of make sense and can anyone answer, please?
This is my first post and I promise that I will get better. Thanks for letting me aboard.

 

[rcmodel]

do I have a LEGAL AR-15 pistol.

No.

Not unless the lower was sold as a pistil lower, and/or the box checked as 'Handgun' or 'other firearm' on the ATF Form 4473 when you bought it.

Failing that, you have assembled an unregistered SBR and are subject to arrest & prosecution.

rc

 

[Deadeye95]

So when the 4473 is being completed when i receieve the lower, through the mail, at the FFL dealers shop, I fill it out as a "pistol". I've never even noticed that there is such a block on the form. I've done dozens and just go down the line checking off blocks. Thanks for the info. So, if I check "pistol" and use that lower for nothing else but a pistol I am legal. Is that what you're saying or am I missing something else.

 

[W.E.G.]

 

[CoRoMo]

do I have a LEGAL AR-15 pistol.

No.

Not unless the lower was sold as a pistil lower, and/or the box checked as 'Handgun' or 'other firearm' on the ATF Form 4473 when you bought it.

Failing that, you have assembled an unregistered SBR and are subject to arrest & prosecution.

rc

Ehem... rc... this must be one of those things that slipped from your firearms-encyclopedia of memory. Either that or you need to get into the Class III pool bud.

The new lower was actually not a rifle nor a pistol when received. It was an 'other firearm' and the OP built it into a pistol; a legal, qualified AR15 pistol.

I've never even noticed that there is such a block on the form.

That's because it is beyond the portion that you'd have filled out. The dealer enters the remaining info throughout the rest of the 4473.

If the dealer marked that the stripped lower receiver as a long gun, he did not follow the instructions of the form he was completing. The instructions are clear and if he deviated from them, his mistake was the mis-designation. Notice, as W.E.G. posted... page 5, Section B, instructions for question 18... http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

 

[rcmodel]

Ehem... rc... this must be one of those things that slipped from your firearms-encyclopedia of memory.

Maybe, maybe not?

and if he deviated from them, his mistake was the mis-designation.

This is true, and if the FFL checked the 'rifle' box, and not the 'Handgun' or 'other firearm'?
The FFL's mistake still falls on the OP if he makes a pistol out of it.

He would do well to go back to the dealer and find out which box was checked.

There! How's that!

rc

 

[triggerman770]

But. If the manufacturer of the lower reported that serial as a rifle on his manufacturing report It will be an unregistered SBR no matter how the 4473 is filled out. the manufacturing report is the controlling document. not the 4473
an 07 FFL

 

[rcmodel]

This is true too!!

rc

 

[CoRoMo]

...if the FFL checked the 'rifle' box, and not the 'Handgun' or 'other firearm'?
The FFL's mistake still falls on the OP if he makes a pistol out of it.

I've heard/read this a lot; that the FFL's slip-up immediately re-designates the item with the full force of the law. I give it a 'possible' over a 'probable' at this point.

What I've never seen is any citation, documentation, or anything at all backing it up. Surely it is out there if the notion is true.

Because if I buy a pistol and the FFL screws up the 4473 and marks it as a long gun... I certainly am not in illegal possession of a short barreled rifle after the mistake he made. Okay, so that one isn't as similar as the OP's deal, granted, but say I'm picking up a Caspian frame for a 1911 build and the FFL marks it as a long gun rather than what it is.

I know it has been posted too many times to count; that the 4473 can inadvertently re-designate a firearm like a stripped lower... but I really want to read it somewhere other than a post before I consider posting it myself.

But. If the manufacturer of the lower reported that serial as a rifle on his manufacturing report It will be an unregistered SBR no matter how the 4473 is filled out. the manufacturing report is the controlling document. not the 4473
an 07 FFL

Without qualifying citation, I'd accept that one far sooner than the former one. It'd still be cool to see this in official ATF literature though. As my post above demonstrates, I'm the type that likes to link directly to a horse's mouth so that my post isn't just another superficial claim amongst the noise.

So I order a Caspian frame from Brownell's...

Caspian designates it as 'handgun'. When it makes a trip through Brownells' bound book, they enter 'long gun'. But when I pick up the frame at my FFL, he marks 'other firearm'. What then?

 

[triggerman770]

"Without qualifying citation, I'd accept that one far sooner than the former one. It'd still be cool to see this in official ATF literature though. As my post above demonstrates, I'm the type that likes to link directly to a horse's mouth so that my post isn't just another superficial claim amongst the noise."

some where in the mountains of notices to manufacturers I have it. when my shop slows down enough I will find it and post it. Remember one thing. The ATF has the ability to make rules on the fly. When a receiver for an AR type rifle is made the manufacturer must declare it a rifle receiver or a pistol receiver on his "notice of manufacture report" by serial number to the ATF
As current holder of a manufacturers FFL I don't consider my post as a superficial claim. How often do you deal with the ATF???

 

[Sam1911]

When a receiver for an AR type rifle is made the manufacturer must declare it a rifle receiver or a pistol receiver on his "notice of manufacture report" by serial number to the ATF
As current holder of a manufacturers FFL I don't consider my post as a superficial claim. How often do you deal with the ATF???

I'd like to see that exactly documented. Please post a direct quote or scan.

What is the point of having a dealer mark "Other Firearm" on the 4473 if you, the manufacturer have to pick handgun or long gun? And what exactly are you reporting to the ATF? A list of specific rifles and pistols manufactured, by serial number?

 

[steveno]

years ago there was a guy that had bought a small Sako action for use as an IHMSA unlimited pistol. his claim was that he had documentation that it had never had a barrel installed in it by Sako and that it was ok to make into the pistol. so was that legal? I don't know if he ever followed through on it and that was back in the early 1980's.

 

[Sam1911]

years ago there was a guy that had bought a small Sako action for use as an IHMSA unlimited pistol. his claim was that he had documentation that it had never had a barrel installed in it by Sako and that it was ok to make into the pistol. so was that legal? I don't know if he ever followed through on it and that was back in the early 1980's.

Yup! If it never had had a shoulder stock attached, it wasn't "designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder" and so was not ever a rifle. He could build it into either a rifle or a handgun.

 

[Bubbles]

a receiver for an AR type rifle is made the manufacturer must declare it a rifle receiver or a pistol receiver on his "notice of manufacture report" by serial number to the ATF

Declare receivers under "Miscellaneous" on Block J of the Annual Report, otherwise you end up owing FAET on them.

 

[triggerman770]

Sam, the first line of my post reads as follows
"some where in the mountains of notices to manufacturers I have it. when my shop slows down enough I will find it and post it"
and when I find it I will. there is a lot of information that goes to the licensee's, that don't make it to the general public. The last revision to the handbook was 2005. these AR/AK style pistols were not prevelent then.
and those rules were sent to the manufacturers. rest assures I will post them when I find them

 

[Sam1911]

I believe Bubbles just posted it for you: http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5300-11.pdf

It doesn't list anything by serial number, just numbers of firearms produced, by type.

So yeah, you're reporting that you made 3,458 rifles and 574 pistols and 9,457,867 "miscellaneous" firearms, but even if you screw up and list AR-15 receivers as "rifles," that couldn't possible supersede what the dealer puts on the 4473 form when s/he sells a particular receiver, because your reporting doesn't have anything to do with that specific firearm, only a total count on how many of each kind you made.

(I suppose if you claim you didn't make ANY "miscellaneous" firearms and your end buyer says s/he got this as a receiver and built a pistol, and the dealer checked "Other firearm," that could be a problem, but I'd think that would be traced back to your bad reporting, not the owner building an illegal unregistered SBR.)

 

[docsleepy]

What happens if I mill a 80percent lower myself? Can I make it either one? Or both?

 

[Sam1911]

If you mill your own receiver, you can make it either one. If you make it a handgun first, you can swap back and forth.

 

[Aaron Baker]

Jesus.

So much bad information.

Folks, we are dealing with criminal laws when we're talking about unregistered SBRs. What makes something a "pistol" or a "rifle" or a "short-barreled rifle" is set out in the definitions of the statutes.

NOWHERE in those statutes does it say "whatever a dealer marks on a 4473 makes your gun an X". NOWHERE in those statutes does it say "whatever a manufacturer reports to the ATF makes your gun an X."

A firearms receiver is just that--a receiver. If it hasn't been built by anyone into a complete firearm, then it's an "other firearm." Not a pistol. Not a rifle.

A manufacturer or a dealer mistakenly marking a form as "rifle" (for instance) when in fact the item has never been built into a rifle and is just a receiver doesn't change what it is.

Remember one thing. The ATF has the ability to make rules on the fly.

This is absolutely, demonstrably, legally false. What the ATF can do is interpret statutes when making decisions about whether or not to prosecute someone. If their interpretation is wrong, then the court will tell them so. If you're risk adverse and don't enjoy litigation, I can see how you might characterize the ATF's opinions as "rules" and follow them like they were the voice of God. But they're just opinions.

If the ATF wants to make regulations, they must follow the administrative rulemaking process like any other executive agency.

And nothing that the ATF does can change what the statute says. The statute is 18 USC Section 921, and it defines an SBR as:

(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

And it defines rifle as:

(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Do you see anything in either definition that says that if you transfer a pineapple on a 4473 and mark it as a rifle, it magically becomes a rifle? No, you don't. Because it doesn't.

To answer the OP's questions:

If you buy a stripped lower, it doesn't matter what it says on any form. There's no federal gun registration and no piece of paper can make a stripped receiver into anything other than a stripped receiver.

If you put a short barrel and a pistol-length buffer on that stripped receiver, you've made a pistol. Assuming that's legal to do under your state's laws, you've violated no federal law whatsoever.

If you make the receiver yourself by milling an 80% receiver, the same rules apply: if you put a short barrel and a pistol buffer on it, it's a pistol.

And just to reiterate: the ATF's power in this area is limited by the statutory definitions of short-barreled rifle and rifle. No "handbook" can change that. No secret, dealer/manufacter-only letters or notices can change that. The law is the law, and the plain language of the statutes trump everything else.

If you don't agree with me and want to prove you're right, you must provide, at minimum, a documented piece of evidence that the ATF has said that owners of stripped receivers may only build them into a certain configuration if they were listed by a manufacturer in a certain way or transferred on a 4473 in a certain way. And then, frankly, I still won't agree until I see the ATF prosecute someone for violating that made-up, illegal rule and somehow prevailing in court.

But you can't, because it's never happened. Nor will it ever happen. This is a country of laws, and we all must abide by them, ATF included.

/rant over

Aaron

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Good rant Aaron.

The only thing I can add is the ATF ruling that if first built as a pistol, it can go back and forth between a legal length rifle and a pistol: http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

Oh hell, probably a good place to add the ATF ruling that OAL is measured with the stock in the fully extended position: http://mechtechsys.com/forum/download/file.php?id=98&sid=c0a799e43f9ed9a70abf9eb0e6f383d4

Mike

 

[Bubbles]

What the ATF can do is interpret statutes when making decisions about whether or not to prosecute someone. If their interpretation is wrong, then the court will tell them so. If you're risk adverse and don't enjoy litigation, I can see how you might characterize the ATF's opinions as "rules" and follow them like they were the voice of God. But they're just opinions.

Litigation isn't the issue, paying my attorney is.

 

[Aaron Baker]

Litigation isn't the issue, paying my attorney is.

A fair point. My attorney may not be very good, but he's free. Because he's me.

I don't have a problem with people avoiding risk by complying with the ATF's fickle opinions. However, I do have a problem with people relaying those opinions like they have the force of law.

In all seriousness, though, I have never heard of a single instance of the ATF prosecuting someone for possessing an illegal short-barreled rifle that was actually a pistol whose paperwork somewhere along the chain accidentally and incorrectly referred to it as a rifle. They do have better things to do, and I don't believe they would actually take that interpretation. And even if an agent did, the Assistant United States Attorney would take one look at the statute and refuse to prosecute.

Aaron

 

[tepin]

Here are the exact steps I took for my SBR *> HERE
When starting from a stripped lower purchased from your FFL, make sure the 4473 describes the lower as "Other". Email the manufacturer of the stripped lower and ensure it (the serial number) was sold to your dealer as "Other".
Do your engraving first. Make a pistol. A pistol buffer tube is not required i.e. rifle tube without the stock is okay. You can add an angled foregrip to your pistol but not a vertical foregrip.

 

[Aaron Baker]

When starting from a stripped lower purchased from your FFL, make sure the 4473 describes the lower as "Other". Email the manufacturer of the stripped lower and ensure it (the serial number) was sold to your dealer as "Other".

Are you reading these threads before you post? This is exactly the issue being debated. No one has provided any compelling reason to believe that what's listed on the 4473 or in the manufacturer's paperwork matters.

Suggesting people send e-mails to manufacturers asking for that information is just going to stop people from legally making AR15 pistols, because A) lots of manufacturers will ignore these e-mails or be too busy to provide this information, and B) most people will think this is too much work and will be turned off by the process.

Seriously, unless you've got a compelling argument that this is legally necessary, don't just spread misinformation.

Aaron

 

[Akita1]

Echo a lot of the above posts - I built an AR pistol lower for my 9" upper and then filed the Form 1 for the lower. Once the stamp is received (whenever the heck that will be), I "manufacture" the rifle lower, meaning swap out the "pistol" parts for rifle. Also put "Multiple" in the caliber section (4.c) so you can use multiple SBR uppers if necessary. Not a lawyer or BATFE expert by any means, but that's the guidance from my NFA attorney and dealer thus far.