"K"onversion & tuning the '58 New Army (Pietta)

[georgi]

Hey all,

I've ordered the Kirst conversion cylinder w./ gate for my standard Pietta 1858 Remington and am excited to be shooting 45LC loads that I'll be hand loading (Remington brass, 5.8g Trail Boss, Oregon Trail 250g .452 RNFP bullets, using the Lee classic loader and auto-primer). I'm intent as well on having a loading gate cut into the backing plate, as well as having new sights installed (adjustable rear & dovetailed front sight), for which work I'm going to take the iron to a gunsmith. While I'm at it I'm figuring I'll have the following done:

- cut 11-degree chamfer to forcing cone
- lighten trigger pull to 3lbs
- lighten hammer pull to tolerance for cartridge & ball
- check chamber to bore concentric alignment and tune cylinder timing
- stone polish & tighten action

To this end, I have a few questions for y'all:

- Does anyone have any recommendations on sights? I was thinking of just going with the target/tiro model 1858's sights parts from VTI, but am happy to entertain other possibilities...

- Would having the hand spring replaced make sense to do as well? The iron is still pretty new and functioning well as is, but I've been reading tales of spring failure with woe and foreboding... If so, any recommendations on prefab ones, or should the 'smith just make one himself?

- Are there any other recommendations for tuning that folks would care to proffer?

- Any suggestions as to what a reasonable total cost for this work should run me?

- Finally, I think I know the smith that I'd like to have do the work, but am wondering if folks have any recommendations for gunsmiths in New England that'd be "best bets" for taking care of my Remmie?

many thanks and straight shoot'n,
-g

 

[junkman_01]

For all the money you want to spend on this project (and it WILL be a LOT), you would be well ahead to pick up a used Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt.

 

[georgi]

well, the biggest single cost—the conversion cylinder and ejector rod—are already a done deal...
so i am, for better or worse, in for the full haul here.
any thoughts on how much the tuning et al 'will likely run?
-g

 

[junkman_01]

$300 would be my SWAG.

 

[georgi]

thanks for that, junkman.
that's about what i was figuring on...
'thoughts on sights? other tuning work to do?
many thanks again,
-g

 

[Old Fuff]

Sometimes, but not always, the bore is way oversized for the bullets you plan to use. On cartridge revolvers the bores usually run .452" where the cap & ball barrels may be as large as .460". Before you go spending any more money slug the barrel and find out where you're at.

 

[GeoffC]

Uburti makes a revolver called the "outlaw" i think. Its more or less a 58 in 45 colt

 

[georgi]

Sometimes, but not always, the bore is way oversized for the bullets you plan to use. On cartridge revolvers the bores usually run .452" where the cap & ball barrels may be as large as .460". Before you go spending any more money slug the barrel and find out where you're at.

'ashamed to admit it, but i don't have any calipers on hand with which to take a measurement on a slug...

my understanding though has been that the '58 NA pietta's do well with a .451 ball (albeit .454 being optimal), so wouldn't a .452 bullet then engage the rifling properly? for s&g i tried placing one of the unseated .452 bullets on both the forcing cone and the crown and it rested there nicely without dropping into the barrel, so i'm presuming (though happily open to correction!) that it has a greater diameter than the bore, no?

many thanks!
-g

 

[Old Fuff]

In a cap & ball revolver the ball or bullet is swaged down to the chamber diameter when it's loaded. So regardless of it starts out at .451" or .454" it's going to be smaller, and chamber diameter when it goes down the barrel.

When you drop a ball/bullet into the barrel and it won't go in it simply means that the bullet is larger then the lands, but not necessarily as large as the grooves...

Clear as mud??

Anyway, the barrel may or may not be O.K. for .452 bullets. My worry is that you may spend a lot of money and end up disappointed. Any gunsmith worth the name should be able to slug the barrel for you, and if he is getting paid to do more extensive work I'd expect him the slug the bore for free.

Unfortunately when the Italians were making cap & ball revolvers they didn't foresee that cartridge conversion were just around the corner. Those that are originally made as cartridge-converted style don't have this problem.

 

[georgi]

I definitely hear ya', Old Fuff, and appreciate the sage words!

'will definitely then have the 'smith slug the barrel and will keep my fingers crossed that these 500 beautiful "laser-cast" .452's that just arrived today aren't useless for my purposes!

Part of my trouble here is that the prime folks I've come across online who supply the cast 45LC's (Oregon Trail [which is what arrived today] & Missouri Bullet Co) do so only in .452... for .454 LC it looks like I'd have to cast my own, which wouldn't be the end of the world, but not necessarily part of the 'hobby' that I'm especially keen to get into at this juncture...

In any event, many thanks again for your insight. 'tis appreciated!
-g

 

[Old Fuff]

It remains to be seen what the groove diameter is, but I question why you need .454" bullets when today the standard size for both .45 ACP and .45 (Long) Colt is .452". Prior to World War Two some Colt Single Actions ran to .454", but those days are long gone.

.454" round balls often work better in c&b revolvers, but this has nothing to do with cartridge or cartridge conversion guns.

I would suggest that if you have a problem (and that's a big "if") with the barrel's bore size the best and probably least expensive solution is to replace the present one with a new one that's made for the .45 Colt cartridge. These are available from a number of places, including VTI Gunparts. If you are going to have the forcing cone worked on it's likely they'd remove and reinstall the barrel anyway. I know that Pietta has made .451" Remington New Army barrels in the past for match-grade c&b revolvers.

 

[scrat]

Fun as hell to do

So easy too. first thing was the cylinder will be too long. Then surface i sanded down. to get it to fit. i made it with about a .04 air gap. Then came the fitting. the timing was almost right on. i needed to mess with some of the teeth on the cylinder a tad. however overall it worked really good. Then a 5/8 grinding wheel and i went to town. once the shells fit i did a lot of finese. my first finish was with using a bluing pen. I HATED IT. so i stripped the gun and did a custom finish then burned the wooden handles. Fun project hit me up if you need any help i did it about a year and half ago

















final finish.

 

[Curator]

Georgi,

Don't forget that the rifling twist on your Pietta '58 Remi is likely 1 in 38" for round ball not the 1 in 16" correct for the .45 Colt with heavy conical slugs. Not only will the gun be less accurate with conical slugs but they will also shoot very high, necessitating a much taller front sight. This has been true for my "conversions" making them a bit less useful than I first imagined. YMMV.

 

[georgi]

@ scrat: that's a beautiful piece! what kind of loads are you shooting? how's accuracy?

@ Curator: thanks for the heads-up on the barrel rifling. VTI lists a variety of 45LC barrels in a variety of sizes... 'don't know that I'm quite ready to add the expense of replacing the barrel, but it does seem as though I'm already "in for a penny"... 'anyone have experience with swapping-out the barrel for 45LC in the NAs?

as well though, 'was reading through this thread ==> http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=403143 and am wondering just how appreciable a difference in accuracy a 1:16" or progressively rifled barrel would actually make at 25yds?

could you please elaborate a little further though on your experience with the conversions using the stock (1:32"?) barrel? what sort of 45LC load(s) have you been shooting? what sort of groups at 25yds did the bench-rested iron yield? what, if anything, did you do about the front sight?

many thanks all,
-g

 

[Curator]

Georgi,

I have several cartridge conversions from cap & ball revolvers. I have one of the 5-shot R&D cylinders (.45 Colt) for my Pietta '58 Remi, a R&D cylinder for my Uberti 3rd Dragoon (.45 Colt), A Kirst Converter for my Pietta 1860 Army Colt (also 5-shot) and a R&D cylinder for my Ruger Old Army (also .45 Colt)

I have shot various "cowboy" loads in all of them using bullets that range from 185 grains to 255 grains at velocities that range from about 650 to 950 fps using both black powder and smokeless powder loads.

As a general rule, the Pietta revolvers with their 1 in 32" twist will not shoot longer bullets with the same accuracy as shorter ones. The 185 Saeco .452 mould will shoot fairly accurately (4" 6-shot groups at 25 yards) but the Lee 200 grain SWC starts to open up (6-8" 6-shot groups) Lee 255 grain RNFP are all over the place and often over the top of the target.

The Uberti Dragoon with 1-18 twist shoots the 200 grain bullet most accurately with the 255 RNFP a close second but these too are over the top in point of impact.The Ruger Old Army (1 turn in 16 inches) shoots all bullets with equal accuracy but it too shoots about 16 to 18 inches high at 25 yards from a sand bag rest.

As I see it the conversion cylinders allow the faster reloading provided with pre-made cartridges but not always the accuracy and point of impact/sight relationship found when shooting round balls. I have considered modifying the sights after I found an accurate load for each revolver but have not gotten around to it yet. I am considering having Veral at LBT make a mould for a 165 grain .45 caliber bullet mould that would be a round ball with a flat base and would probably shoot accurately in my two Pietta revolvers.

 

[georgi]

many thanks, Curator.
'much food for thought there!
barrel aside, modifying/adjusting the sights once settled on a load certainly seems like a must...
do you think the sights from the tiro/target version of the pietta '58 NA would be a good choice in this setup? what other sights might be a good bet?
many thanks again,
-g

 

[rcflint]

conversion

The Pietta bore does OK with lighter bullets, as previously mentioned. I shoot 200 gr, but 195 and 165 bullets are available. The bore diameter on a Pietta works with 452 bullets. A lot depends on what you're going to use the gun for. They are more than accurate enough for Cowboy Action Shooting.

If you can find a Target sighted Pietta Remington, check to see if the frame topstrap is the same as the fixed sight version, maybe catalog photos will tell something, but as the front sight on that model is so much higher, the frame might be a bit different. Of course, since the rear sight blade is higher than the frame top, that could be the difference in front sight design. As long as you can mill a slot for the rear sight in the topstrap you have, the front sight height can always be adjusted to match.

Yes, redo the forcing cone, some Piettas have none at all....

A Bobby pin makes a good hand spring, when cut and tweaked to shape, and lasts longer than the Italian one.

 

[georgi]

I'm wondering...
would an Uberti barrel seat in a Pietta frame without too much trouble or fuss?
I'm thinking that the Uberti 7&1/2" barrel from the 1873 target model would make a good new barrel as it comes without sights and so I could then have the Pietta target sights installed...
but does anyone know for certain if the Uberti 1873 45LC barrel does indeed have the 1:16" rifling twist?
many thanks!
-g

ps the cylinder and handloading supplies all arrived and i have shot some preliminary groups with a starting trail boss load... very nice shooting and easily tighter groups than c&b. 'thinking of experimenting with some loads of unique as well...
so much fun to be had!

 

[rcflint]

Remington

The Uberti frame is shorter in front of the cylinder, so the threaded portion of the barrel is shorter than the Pietta. They also have different length loading levers, and the dovetail on the Uberti barel won't match the proper location for the lug/catch if on a Pietta.

I think the Uberti rifling is 1:18.

 

[georgi]

many thanks, rcflint!

i'm wondering then if having the stock '58NA bore relined with a 1:16" twist would be a viable option? the Pietta-made 7&1/2" barrel for 45LC is fairly pricey and already has a sight attached (which i'd just be removing anyway since i want to install the target model sights), and i'm unsure as to what rifling twist it uses, so... would bore relining the revolver be a practical solution?

cheers
-g

 

[arcticap]

The Pietta Remington C&B's have a 1 in 30" twist.

http://www.pietta.us/products/Muzzleloadinguns/Remington/index.html

Below is an interesting thread about relieving a Pietta barrel which resulted with it shooting 255 grain Lee conicals better.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=495441