Kahr "D/A Only"

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LevelHead

LevelHead

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I just got a wonderful Kahr MK9 Elite 98 from one of the honest members of this board, and I have a question.

The Kahr documentation describes their action as "Trigger cocking DAO".

Upon examination of the mechancs (which are quite impressive IMHO), it does not appear to me to be this at all.

The striker is cocked about 95+ percent by the slide. The trigger cocks it the rest of the way while then releases it as the passive striker safety is released. Though yes - the trigger does cock the striker a bit, it would seem unessary to the firing of the gun. It's like pulling the string on a bow then pulling it an extra inch before releasing...

Am I missing something or is this just fancy marketing jive.

I *love* the gun and have no real problems with the above, I'm just following on my deep-seated need to understand.

Also what is the general feeling as to the safety of the design? I'm a "need to see and feel the hammer" kind of guy, and this is my first striker fired pistol.


Thanks!
 
No, I think you called it right. I like the Kahr but it ain't what I think of as a trigger-cocking action, either.

Safety...I think they're perfectly safe...as long as your trigger finger is connected to your brain. That seems to be the problem with so many Glock NDs (and FWIW the Kahr doesn't have the little safety lever in the trigger face). Still, the engagement looks very positive, the trigger/striker springs are of reasonable weights, and I don't feel at all unsafe carrying one.
 
They use the term DAO because most people understand that term. To call it something else would just confuse people. But it does have a very nice "DAO" trigger. As for the hammer ? In a short time you won'y miss it at all.
 
Same general principal as Glocks. Both are considered DAO autoloaders, although the Glock trigger is more like SA with some takeup. Kahr's trigger is very SMOOOOTH, more like a tuned DA revolver. I have a Kahr MK9 and several Glocks.

I prefer striker fire pistols myself although I have plenty of hammer fire handguns. They both have their place, but I think the striker fire pistol is easier to handle and conceal. There are pros and cons for both mechanisms. However, all quality pistols, of either design are highly reliable, so enjoy your Kahr.
 
Here's my problem:

The Kahr, like the Glock, like the 1911, all rest in a state of potential energy. A spring is compressed and is prevented from the release of its energy by one or more safeties and the trigger. Machines fail, and that's why there are multiple safeties, but the way my life goes, they'll all fail so bad it will make the guy next to me's gun go off. :)

Seriously, the core of my issue with striker fired or single action guns is that this potential energy exists. With a Double action gun, there is not this condition unless chosen (single action). For a Double Action gun to be fired, energy must be expended (hopefully by the operator) to make the gun fire, or even to make the gun capable of firing.

I'm not looking to start a SA vs. DA war here, I'm really looking for someone to make me understand and trust a striker fired pistol more. I *love* the fact that I can carry my USP with the hammer down - same with a Sig. I also love this little Kahr so much that I need to know more.

The fact that the Kahr has the long pull trigger, in my mind, makes it more safe than the Glock. Of course this is a HUGE perception thing, and I certainly don't want to go down that road. It's a personal preference, and between the two, I prefer the Kahr. I'm just still not sure I trust a cocked and locked pistol in my pants, which is pretty much what they all are or strive to be. I look forward to opinions and observations from you all!

Thanks!
 
I too was under the impression that Kahrs were DAO, and had a steady DA trigger like a revolver. I felt kind of stupid when I dry fired it once, then realized I had to retract the slide to cock it. Is there anything else they could call it?

Chris
 
The Kahr, like the Glock, like the 1911, all rest in a state of potential energy. A spring is compressed and is prevented from the release of its energy by one or more safeties and the trigger.
Click to expand...
The Glock does not have enough potential energy stored when the striker is set to ignite the primer. The only way the Glock can fire is if the trigger is pulled COMPRESSING the striker spring. The Glock is a true DAO in that pulling trigger compresses the striker spring (so there will be enough energy to ignite the primer) and releases the striker (thereby releasing the energy stored DURING the trigger stroke to ignite the primer). The Glock obtains its [too] short, [too] light trigger stroke by judcious manipulation of the angles and spring weights--NOT by pre-loading the striker spring.
 
I got a MK9 too a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, the striker is indeed almost fully cocked. The "cocking cam" that releases the striker only cocks it a tiny amount.

Here's a page on Kahr's website that has a good diagram: www.kahr.com/vg_unique.html

I think it's a safe design, even if the little bit of extra cocking that the cam provides doesn't make a difference in whether or not the striker has enough energy to set off a primer. The piece of the cam that holds the striker back is pretty thick and wide. Plus, you still need to pull the trigger to push the striker block up.

In theory, double action is safer than single action. I think the question though is if a particular gun design has a practical and reasonable amount of safety.
 
Interesting to see people's take on the Glock trigger in this context. I changed my only Glock to a NY 1 trigger, which I find quite similar to many of my DA revolvers. The stock trigger was too light for my tastes for defensive purposes.
 
Hmm... I was just looking at my Kahr again. It seems like the striker might actually only be about 2/3 cocked after you rack the slide (and before you pull the trigger). If the striker was released from that position, it might very well not have enough energy to ignite a primer.
 
I consider it a very safe design for carry. I've given mine a few whacks on the back of the slide with a rubber mallet and nothing loud happened. :p

I, too, think they use the term DAO much like the Glock... Means there's more to the trigger pull that just tripping the sear. To my reckoning, if you repeatedly pull the trigger on a true DAO that was unloaded, you would hear a series of 'click, click, click' which obviously isn't true of the Glock or the Kahr. But I'll gladly put up with a questionably named action to get the smooth, consistant trigger pull of the Kahr action.

:)
 
*WARNING- I don't have my Kahr w/me right now, so all of this is from memory. I could be wrong. (Ask my wife, it wouldn't be the first time)*

If you look, the cam that finishes "cocking"and releases the firing pin would also keep the firing pin from flying forward if something were to happen with the firing pin spring, a whack from a mallet, etc. I don't think that the cam can move forward at all, so it would have to move back to let the pin go forward. It would seem to me that the pressure from the firing pin spring (transmitted via the firing pin), keeps the cam from moving back.

That being said, it would take this spring failing for the cam to be able to move back to release the firing pin. If the firing pin spring is broken, not much chance of it touching off a round. Also, with the shape of the cam it actually has to move back fairly far to release the pin.

I hope this makes sense. I promise, it makes sense when I look at it in my mind.

Peace out,
Calhoun
 
I agree with Calhoun. And in addition to what he describes, there is also the striker blocker, which must be moved out of the path of the striker by the second cam before the striker can travel to the primer. The Kahr is quite safe, so long as the trigger isn't pulled, the gun will not fire. Another term for it is "drop safe".

Just a reminder on keeping the gun safe: When cleaning your Kahr, don't forget to check the action of the striker blocker. While drawing the striker back slightly, push the blocker up into the slide. It should return to it's blocking position when released. And try not to let the striker snap against the blocker; it might mar the blocker and cause it to stick.
 
In fact, the Kahr is one of the safest design's ever built.

The action is actually a "pre-cocked" DAO system.

The firing pin, (note that it ISN'T a striker) is pre-cocked by the slide travel setting the trigger mechanism.

When the trigger is pulled, the rotary sear pulls the pin farther to the rear and releases it.
This is in fact, a DAO movement, since in a DAO system the trigger cocks the action and releases it.

In striker fired actions, the trigger is actually a single action system that just RELEASES the already fully spring-loaded striker.

Whether the action is partially cocked or not, the action of the trigger cocking or completing the cocking process counts as DAO.

In this, the Kahr is very similar to a modern DA revolver. When the S&W revolver is fired, releasing the trigger actually, "rebounds" or "pre-cocks" the action.
When the trigger is released, the hammer moves backward, which also resets the trigger for the next pull.

In that respect, the revolver is ALSO partially cocked and under spring tension. The action is blocked by the rebound system and an extra steel block, both of which prevent firing unless the trigger is pulled.

So the ultra-safe DA revolver is ALSO partially cocked, prevented from firing only by safety blocks.

The Kahr is also very safe.
To fire the Kahr, the trigger MUST be pulled since the following safety systems are in play:
The firing pin block prevents the pin from moving forward until it's deactivated by the trigger pull.

The rotary sear's large "sear" face is in front of the firing pin and prevents the firing pin from moving forward.

The "pre-cock" position of the firing pin is under too little tension to allow the pin to fire the cartridge, even if it somehow were to be able to move forward.

The firing pin spring is too strong to allow the firing pin to move backward
enough to have enough tension to fire the gun, unless it were dropped from a building.

The trigger movement in the Kahr is very revolver-like in that it requires a fair amount of movement to fire the gun. Glock's can fire easier, because the design uses a much shorter trigger movement to fire.
Revolvers are safer for the same reason: a longer trigger movement.

In all, I consider the Kahr to be more on the order of a magazine-fed REVOLVER than an auto pistol.

The trigger feels like a well-tuned S&W revolver, and the ONLY way to get the gun to fire IS to pull the trigger.

I've given the action a thorough examination, and the only way to get the weapon to "accidentally" fire OTHER than pulling the trigger would be to disable the safety features, and doing so in most cases will render the gun inoperative.

Bottom line: We've been using DA Colt and S&W revolvers for over a hundred years with the full understanding that they just can't fire UNLESS the trigger is pulled.
The Kahr is in the same class, as far as that goes, but it'll take time for it to gain the same understanding.

People just aren't used to the idea of an auto pistol as safe as a revolver.
 
dfariswheel, you provided an excellent description of the workings of this fine little pistol. However, I want to point to a few minor details. I don't want to appear to be nit-picking, but you mention a distinction between 'firing pin' and 'striker'. I have open before me my Owners Manual for my MK9, and the term "striker" and "striker block" are used throughout. Also (another minor point) is Kahr's use of the term "cocking cam" rather than "rotary sear".

Can you provide the rationale behind your making this distinction:
{The firing pin, (note that it ISN'T a striker) is pre-cocked by the slide travel setting the trigger mechanism.} ?

I'm curious; I'm not only here to share what I know, I'm here to learn.
 
Striker/firing pin can be confusing .I the 1903 rifle there are two parts , a striker and a firing pin. It is the stricker that hits the primer.
 
My rational for the cocking cam versus rotary sear:
Too many people have been confused when I described it as a cocking cam.
I've had better luck with the term "Rotary sear".

Everybody usually understands the term "sear", but people have problems with "cam".
I've done this simply to limit the amount of explanation needed to be sure people understand the concept.

The term firing pin versus striker:
In some very early literature, Kahr themselves called the striker and striker spacer, the firing pin and firing pin spacer and I'm having problems breaking myself of the habit.

Another reason, is that "striker" seems to confuse people who don't understand the Kahr concept. Too many people "raised" on the old single action striker-fired pistols, are unwilling to accept the concept of a pistol with a striker that's SAFE to carry.

I recently went 'round and 'round with a gentleman who was convinced a striker fired gun was NOT safe, no matter what, but that a gun with a firing pin could be OK.

I tend to use these terms with people who I'm not sure are up to speed on the latest technology.

I do so just to hold down the long explanations.
To be fair, I'll attempt to call the parts by the factory name from now on.

No excuse.
 
Awesome thread guys.

So looking at the Kahr, I honestly find it hard to believe that the difference bwteen the "mostly cocked" and the "fully cocked" is enough to prevent or enable the ignition of a primer. I'd love to see that documented...

Is there a defined standard striking force that a primer must adhere to? I would think there is, but I never really thought about it before... That would explain a lot of this in my mind at least.
 
While I believe there isn't enough tension force available in the Kahr to fire
a round in the pre-cocked mode, the point is, IT WON'T GET THE CHANCE.

Again, the Kahr is as well protected from accidental firing as any good American revolver. That is to say, short of pulling the trigger, or so totally damaging the gun as to destroy it, there's no way for it to have an "Oops".

Somebody once did a test of just how safe a S&W revolver was. They locked it in a vise, loaded a primer-only round, and proceeded to beat on the hammer with a ball peen hammer.

The result was, the hammer finally broke in half, but the round never popped.

Like revolvers, the Kahr has two separate safety blocks, BOTH of which must fail in order for the gun to fire. Unlike a revolver, the Kahr HAS no hammer to be struck, and the lighter striker pretty well rules failures out.

As an example of just how safe modern pistols are: Not ONE of the numerous autos and revolvers recovered at the World Trade Center had fired.
This was in a situation where NOTHING survived as anything but bits and pieces no larger than about 8".
Heavy office equipment and even office safes were totally shredded.
Even some guns were in pieces, but none fired.

These things are NOTHING like the early to mid 20th Century design autos.

We don't worry about revolvers suddenly "going off" if bumped or even dropped, and the Kahr won't either.
Over a hundred years has PROVED the revolver is safe to carry without concern, and time will prove the same about the Kahr, for the same reasons......good design, and high quality production.

Of the things to worry about with pistols, a Kahr safety failure induced AD is the absolute LAST thing to be concerned about.

Bottom line is: The Kahr will ONLY fire if the trigger is pulled. But, like the revolver it WILL fire if the trigger is pulled, so you have to pay attention.
 
"Not ONE of the numerous autos and revolvers recovered at the World Trade Center had fired. "

That's an interesting statement I'd not heard before. Is there a reference for this? I'd love to read more.
 
A "friend of a friend" is a Federal agent who read a report about the recovery of guns.

The Agents at the dump where all recovered items were taken examined all the guns found. The report said no fired guns were recovered, even though most recovered guns were badly damaged.

I also saw this on TV during an interview with the same Agents.
There were large plastic buckets full of rusty and broken pistols.
 
Cool - thanks!

So does anyone have any info as to the force needed to ignite a primer and if the striker fired mechanisms are designed such that they wouldn't ignite one if released in "semi-cock"?
 
OK, last night I did a 100% disassemble of my K9 and checked out the "pre-cock" system.

I'm going to change my opinion that the spring doesn't have enough tension to fire if it dropped. From the looks of it, there IS enough tension to fire a round.

However, again, IT WON'T GET THE CHANCE, so it doesn't matter.

Before the Kahr can fire, the solid steel striker block must be moved up, and the cocking cam must rotate backward to clear the path of the striker.

In order for an AD to happen, they would have to be a TOTAL failure of:
The striker block.
TWO separate areas on the striker
The cocking cam.

The striker block is a strong unit that interacts with a shoulder on the striker. Both are fairly massive parts, made of high grade steel.

The striker also butts against the cocking cam. Again both parts are strong, high grade steel.

For the gun to AD, the striker block and it's interface with the striker would have to shear, AND the cocking cam and it's interface with the striker would have to shear.

These parts are of a low enough mass, and strong enough steel, that I doubt dropping from a tall building and landing squarely on the muzzle would be enough to fire the gun.

Bottom line: The chances of BOTH safety's failing at the same time are so unlikely as to be astronomical.

In short, the Kahr is AT LEAST as safe as a modern DA revolver, and when is the last time you heard of a revolver safety mechanism failing?

Again, of the handgun safety issues you need to be concerned about , the LAST one to worry about is a catastrophic failure of TWO safety blocks.
 
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