Kansas: what went right, what went wrong?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Right and Wrong

...We had one dedicated Republican senator, a fellow once associated with various gun clubs and someone who could trot out facts when needed. He was very helpful in the Senate. Facts are always useful. I noted another dedicated democratic house rep, a lady married to an LEO, who sponsored the bill originally. She did so at the request of two of her constituents who were raped,and she made this clear at every opportunity....
Click to expand...

I agree somewhat with texascarl.
The dedicated Republican senator
Click to expand...
was Phil Journey. He is an attorney who is a past president of the Kansas State Rifle Association. He resigned that office when he became a Senator to avoid conflict of interest; but, he didn't change his beliefs nor suddenly become ignorant of the facts. He sponsored/introduced the bill in the Senate this time. This was a Senate Bill this time around.

Also,
the dedicated democratic house rep, a lady married to an LEO, who sponsored the bill originally
Click to expand...
actually had sponsored a similar bill in the house 2 years ago. It passed both House and Senate then but they did not have enough votes in the House to override the Governor's veto then. This Lady is Representative Candy Ruff and she remains VERY passionate and persistent about this issue. She is also on the Federal and State Affairs Committee in the House, which is the committee to which the bill was referred. She is a journalist and a very persuasive speaker on this issue and I am sure that she was a major factor in our success in the House this time around. I believe she has worked for this for the better part of about 10 years.

Additionally, the NRA was more active this time around. I received several very timely Emails from the NRA at key points in the process this time advising both where the bill was in the process and which Senators and Representatives needed to hear from us most at different points in the process. This helped us at the grass roots level to focus upon and target those legislators, in addition to our own, in a way to maximize the effect of our efforts.

Finally, I believe that more legislators have finally become more educated on this issue and I am sure that this being an election year didn't hurt us either.
 
texascarl, I'm sorry to be repeating myself so often, but what we did in Wisconsin was every bit as much as what I've heard so far that was done in Kansas.

We've had TX Representative Susanna Gratia Hupp (whose parents were killed in the Killeen, TX massacre) up here three times in the last three legislative sessions to testify before Assembly and Senate committees. Her testimony from this last session is on Senator Zien's site. She was in the chair for nearly two hours, and was very effective.

We had Theresa Sweet testify every single session about how she and her sister were gang-raped across the street from the town's police station, and how her attackers are still at large, and still make contact with her. The NRA ran very chilling radio ads in which she told her story.

We've had other rape victims tell their stories. The story of one rape victim back in 2004 was even more chilling. She told her story, and then left the room, in tears. Her husband was left to fill in the blanks.

And SOB's like Democrat Senator Fred Risser tried to poke holes in her story.

We've had Massad Ayoob, John Lott and other "experts" testify.

We've had many, many more victims of extremely violent crimes testify.

The NRA has bombarded key districts (Van Akkeren's, Steinbrink's, and Gary Sherman's) with radio ads, newspaper ads, phone banks, and direct mail.

WCCA volunteers, as well as volunteers from other gun groups, have put in thousands of hours to help people contact their legislators.

Our political action committee--the WCCM--has contributed the maximum amount allowed by law to any pro-CCW candidate who would accept PAC money. And then we asked people to donate time or private contributions on top of that.

I honestly do not know what more we could have done. That's why I'm asking those who were involved in the Kansas fight for their input.

From the limited perspective I have on Kansas politics, it would seem that us Cheeseheads worked a lot harder.

Something ain't right.

Any and all advice from Kansas folks is very much appreciated.
 
Right & Wrong

Dick,

Sounds like you're doing all the right things. I worked for this in Missouri for several years before moving to Kansas 10 years ago and have since worked for it here in Kansas.

It took more than 10 years to get it in Missouri and likewise here in Kansas.

In Missouri our efforts included annual rallys with busses chartered to transport grass roots supporters to the Capital from Kansas City, St. Louis, and other areas of the State. We had really good turnouts filling the rotunda of the capital building. We had good nationally known speakers and state legislative sponsors/supporters to rev up the crowd followed by the grass roots troops contacting their legislators in person at their offices in the Capital Building. The busses were sponsored by Gun Clubs and other pro CCW Organizations and their costs were recovered from participants. My wife and I went on some of these trips, from Kansas City, and I believe it cost less than $30 each time (round trip) for the two of us.

Two years ago we tried a Rally here in Topeka, Kansas; but, the turnout wasn't that great. :( We also had TX Representative Susanna Gratia Hupp testify. Her's is indeed a powerful story.

We had previous CCW attempts vetoed twice by two Governors. This year was the third time in a little less than ten years that CCW was vetoed. Perhaps it's true that the "third time's a charm". :)

I wasn't able to make it to the hearings; but I understand that, this year, testimony was focused on the horror stories of Kansans.

I believe that all of these things help but it takes considerable time to replace legislators that insist on remaining ignorant with people that are either pro 2A or at least willing to listen with an open mind and it takes time to educate the latter. :banghead:

I think that the single most important thing you must do is to keep up the fight. Don't let yourselves get discouraged. As long as you keep up the fight, your opponents must continue to win each time to beat you. You only have to win once and it's done! Keep doing what you're doing and let your legislators know that the issue will not go away -- civil rights issues never do!

Know that the rest of us, in the other 49 states are 'pulling for you' in WI, NE, and IL and many of us will do what we can to help. Use these Web sites to keep the rest of us informed of your progress and how we can help.
 
Shanghai McCoy,

Don't list all Johnson county residents as RINOs. I live in Jo Co and attended the Senate and House hearings on the bill. Afterwards I went and intorduced myself to both my senator and representative, whom sit on the respective comitties that heard the bill, and asked for their support for SB 418. Each one of them said they supported the bill and voted in the affirmative for the bill both times, to pass it and then to override her nibs veto. There are a lot of 2nd amendment friendly people here in Jo Co and supported SB 418 and saw it through.
 
My impression is that KS and WI are very different politically.

KS is a solidly conservative state, with just a few liberal enclaves. Even in those enclaves, the liberals do not have solid, secure, majorities. Occasionally KS does elect Democrats but they know they can't get away with any Dianne Fienstein type nonsense or they will be thrown out come election time.

Sebelius made a misjudgement that may bite her in the next election - although getting her veto overridden may be a blessing in disguise for her because it takes the steam out of one issue to defeat her.

WI seems to me to be a much more divided state with much more entrenched liberal strongholds. Madison could be teleported to Southern California or Red China, and other than the weather, the locals might never notice. Milwaukee is like Chicago's little brother, striving to emulate the evil empire of Commissar Daley.

I still think WI can be won, but it looks like a lot more uphill climb than KS.

Also, check me if I'm wrong, but I don't think KS CCW supporters had a fake pro-gun org stabbing them in the back at every step along the way. That ED guy you have pooping in the punch bowl up there in WI is a major problem: he might as well be on Sarah Brady's payroll.
 
Also, check me if I'm wrong, but I don't think KS CCW supporters had a fake pro-gun org stabbing them in the back at every step along the way. That ED guy you have pooping in the punch bowl up there in WI is a major problem: he might as well be on Sarah Brady's payroll.
Click to expand...

Ahh.. You're referring to the WGO. I peronally don't think the WGO is an anti-gun spoiler group. "They" probably are a pro-gun organization, unfortunately, Corey Graff a.k.a. the "EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR" (look up his posts right here on THR ...) seems to be the cynical sort, more intrested in making a living off memberships from his one-man-wears-all-the-hats "gun rights organization" than he does about effective change.

It's my opinion that the WGO's unworkable Vermont carry position, and those backing CCW permits are "sell outs" trying to create backdoor "registration", (well, don't sign up for a permit then, DUH...) is just a tactic to set them apart from the crowd of gun-rights orgs here in WI and get donations from the black helicopter/tinfoil hat wing of the WI RKBA movment.

Frankly, those people are lost to us. They're too paranoid to write a legislator card at a WCCA gun show table for fear of winding up on "the list". I am not exaggerating either. I've literaly had this said to my face (usualy through their missing teeth) while working gun shows for the WCCA.

Fortunately, it appears that WGO did not have an impact on the PPA legislation or the failed veto override either way. The ONLY mainstream mention I heard about the WGO at all was a mention by a caller to the top-rated Mark Belling conservative radio talk show. Both the caller and the host surmised the WGO was either just a crackpot fringe group or an anti-spoiler organization.

Lord only knows what, if anything the WGO has sent to legislators and media outlets. It's possible they just think the WGO is a pro-gun spoiler, and that thier "extreme" Vermont/Alaska carry position is just a foil to make licensed CCW look reasonable... :rolleyes:
 
--------quote--------------
It's possible they just think the WGO is a pro-gun spoiler, and that thier "extreme" Vermont/Alaska carry position is just a foil to make licensed CCW look reasonable...
-----------------------------

Maybe, but most of the liberal-media types I have known (and used to work with) would spin it differently. Instead of thinking that the WGO is the far-crazy group and WCCA is the mainstream "reasonable" group, they would tend to lump everyone together and assume that if you are an NRA member, you also support unlicensed carry, and if you support unlicensed carry, you support unlicensed carry for children, which entails supporting massacres at elementary schools. They really don't credit the opposition with any kind of thoughtful or beneficial approach - they just think we are all literally crazy and probably KKK members to boot.

It's encouraging to read your analysis that your "splinter group" isn't doing much damage, though. You're much more familiar with the situation than I am and I hope you're right and continue to be right.
 
True or not I don't know but it almost makes sense:

I believe a Kansan over on glock talk indicated that we would get the override vote this year because the dems were wanting the reps. to play ball on the gambling issue. Being a conservative state it makes sense as I can see the conservative voices voicing a strong opposition to gambling. So it might have simply been a "you scratch my back, and I will scratch yours" deal. It sure would not be the first time something like that has happened.

As for Sen. Phil Journey, the man is definitely our most vocal advocate. Furthermore, he attends the gun shows and speaks with the people as a whole, rather than just the people in his district.

As for sebelius, I will do my part to boot her that is for sure. Polls last year were showing, if I remember correctly, 70% approval of CCW by the people of the state. How she can thumb her nose at what the overwhelming majority want and claim she knows better than we do what we want and need, she's got a brass pair.
 
I believe a Kansan over on glock talk indicated that we would get the override vote this year because the dems were wanting the reps. to play ball on the gambling issue. Being a conservative state it makes sense as I can see the conservative voices voicing a strong opposition to gambling. So it might have simply been a "you scratch my back, and I will scratch yours" deal. It sure would not be the first time something like that has happened.
Click to expand...

The input from everyone has been great. Especialy considering it might well be easier for Kansans to bask in the glow of victory, and just ignore Wisconsin's woes for a few days. However, this right there might be our first real piece of unique intelegence from the Kansas battle in this thread.

We know what turned our sole flipper in the 2004 override attempt here in WI. A cush state job appointment from the Governor if he lost his seat over the betrayal, and the ability to ride the Governor's coat-tails for fund raising outside his district to try and see that he kept his seat. (It worked, unfortunately)

Other than stating the obvious, that it was gubanatorial and party pressure, we still don't know exactly what flipped the two Assemblymen this time. I don't think it was merely a matter of "Because I said so" from Governor Doylet and the WI DNC. I still think these two clowns got something for thier flip. What was it?

Monkeyleg has casted about for ideas in the past trying to tie CCW in WI to something that the hunters want, seeing as how powerful a constituency they are in the state. They've managed to push through a whole host of un-PC legislation like a new dove hunting season through. However, I now realize that's too narrow a vision. Since most of us are not in the legislature, we can be forgiven for thinking logicaly. I think it's fair to say that that you've got to breathe the air under the capitol dome a little longer before you realize at a gut level that the WI PPA need not be tied to something even nominaly RKBA related.

I know this is ultimately up to the legislators, including the one's who are in our corner and championing our cause, however, fellow14's info about the Kansas Glocktalker mentioning backroom deals over casinos proves the point.

We need to find the leveragewhatever it is. If it's a bill about the number of allowable holes in cheese, an expensive pork-barrel bridge crossing a mud puddle to nowhere, or a resolution declaring Wisconsin a statewide sanctuary for the Snipe and Grunion, so be it.

Even the legislators who've been our biggest champions have other agendas besides CCW and RKBA, perhaps ones they could compromise on to help push the PPA through, but ones they may not be willing to sacrifice. If the RKBA base became aware of an opportunity for a trade, we could apply pressure on our own side to play in ways they may not have been willing to in the past.

So, what is the issue or issues that's dear to our weak legislators hearts?

How do we pressure our pro-gun legislators to put it on the table and make a serious deal?
 
"we still don't know exactly what flipped the two Assemblymen this time."

How about approval from Doyle for the indian casinos to buy out the Dairyland Greyhound track that's in Steinbrink's district?
 
fellow14,

As I said in a post above, I attended both the senate and house hearings and you do have a wonderful senator in Phil Journey. He could talk about any portion of the bill, which was 23 pages, almos without looking at it. However, when a specific page, line, etc was given he did go to it so that they were on the same level. You have another attorney from ICT that was an anti toward the bill and was representing The Interfaith Ministeries and I won't say his name Kelly Johnston who also is a member of the VPC and ACLU. I could not believe that he read SB 418 as what came out of his mouth twisted and perverted of what was in the bil. It was astounding.
 
How about approval from Doyle for the indian casinos to buy out the Dairyland Greyhound track that's in Steinbrink's district?
Click to expand...

Okay. That might be actionable.

Is there a group opposing this that we can pitch in with? (I'm going to do some research shortly on Google.) Regardless of the merits of having the Dairyland Track bought out by the Indians for a casino, why not have the WCCA/WCCM mailing list used to have people oppose this just purely as payback?

If the fact that we keep coming back every session, and that we've been so close each time isn't enogh, It might at least send the message that we're getting more and more P.O.'ed each time the PPA fails, and now we're bringing our take-no-prisoners "A-game". Any interests of those who oppose us shouldn't be safe.

A tougher task, but the next legislative session, can the NRA lobbyists or the pro-gun legislative staffers give us some ground-level intel ahead of time so we can bring pressure aginst any waffling legislators pet-pork projects or legislation?

I say this knowing it's hard enough as it is to get our base active about the PPA itself, much less peripheral issues, however, we know the "other side" is reading our e-mail and web-postings and literature. Just the fact that we're examining every point of opposition might be a shot across thier bow.
 
AJ, I'd love to bring other groups into our cause. But maybe such groups are afraid to have themselves associated with a lobbying group/political action committee with a name like "Concealed Carry."

Maybe we should rename our groups to something more friendly, like "fuzzy bunny lovers".

As for "intel," I'm certain that I was given whatever there was to know, and I passed along to all WCCA volunteers anything that was allowed to be public knowledge.

Fact is, there wasn't much that wasn't public knowledge after the December Assembly vote. Neither Steinbrink nor Van Akkeren would talk to anybody. I think that pretty much said it all.

I know I'm harping on the same point in every post, but we need to have Doyle gone. If he's re-elected, I just don't see any point in trying to fight this battle again. I think we'd do better by trying to bring other factions--small business owners, pharmacists, the well-heeled crowd, and others--into our fold, and prepare for 2008, 2009 or whatever year we think we can get the votes to override.

If that sounds defeatist, well, it's not. The folks in Kansas obviously had all their ducks (legislators) in a row before they took on Sebelius. Remember the advice of Sun Tzu: a good general does not attack until he knows that he has won the battle.

The WCCA has gained enormous influence in Madison in the last five or so years, in no small part because our political action committee raises money for candidates.

But maybe I'm not the right person to run the group. Maybe there's someone who has more political savvy.

All I know is that I want to win, no matter who's in charge, or what the cost.
 
YankeeRebel,
My apologies for impuning you as a JoCo RINO..:)
We had a breakfast at the Legion Hall in Perry on Saturday and I was able to thank my rep and state senator in person for their work on this bill.They have both been supporters all along and were very happy to get it passed.
 
AJ, I'd love to bring other groups into our cause. But maybe such groups are afraid to have themselves associated with a lobbying group/political action committee with a name like "Concealed Carry."
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about trying to get other groups under our banner, but using some of the easier low/no cost resources at your disposal to start pointing WCCA members in their direction instead.

One idea I have is using the WCCA mailing list to inform our people about things like the Dairyland deal, and urging them to oppose it as payback to Steinbrink. If any of the WI anti-gambling groups have say, online petitions, (I'm trying to research this…) mail us the link, and encourage the membership to sign them.

Make it clear to the membership that the WCCA has no dog in this fight other than taking Steinbrink's thirty pieces of silver away from him. This is purely "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" tactics.

If a Dairyland story comes up in the papers, encourage the WCCA membership list to write anti-gambling letters to the editor etc. If there's a anti-gambling rally, encourage the local WCCA members to attend to fill out their numbers.

Even if the response from the membership is actually miniscule, I think our enemies, and the fair-weather "pro-gun" mercenary traitor legislators, would sit up and take notice of the simple fact we've begun to sic the WCCA dog on their pet projects, especially those that they promote at our expense.

If we turn the WCCA into a rapid-reaction political harassment force (or even just create the appearance that we're trying) perhaps our enemies, and our treasonous "friends" will get the message. It's yet another inducement to finally pass the PPA, even if only to make us go away.

It's guerilla tactics 101. If you can't win outright, the next step is a war of attrition. We've already been doing that through sheer persistance, Jeri Boniva of WAVE said so to your face. If wearing them down is the only thing tha'ts showing progress, let's turn it up a notch.

I'll be honest, I don't really give a damn about Indian casino's one way or another. It's just the only working example I've got. If anything, the libertarian in me is only irked that the Wisconsin tribes are getting a sweetheart deal, not that there's gambling in WI, but if I know it's hurting Steinbrink, I want in.

Maybe this whole idea is dumb, and a seasoned lobbyist or insider can explain why it'll backfire, but it's the best I've got so far.
 
AJ, those sound like good ideas.

One group I learned might be our allies are pharmacists. Doyle put a cap on Medicaid pharmacy benefits, which forces pharmacists to either make less money or not handle Medicaid claims at all. Plus, Doyle put up a website where people can order drugs from Canada.

There's a lot of mom-and-pop pharmacies whose owners probably would also like to carry when they close up shop at night.

I don't know if the Dairyland track deal is done yet. I'll have to look into that.
 
In Texas, we had to get rid of Democrat Ann Richards AND people had to die in the Luby's tragedy before we could get it passed here.

I know its obvious, but you've got some rat bastards that need to be voted out. It's never a cake walk, but when you do get that victory in Wisconsin (and no mistake, you WILL) it'll be all the sweeter.
 
The reason is quite simple...

Governor Sebelius, as much as a lot of people bash her, will do arm twisting by phone, but won't flat out bribe members of the Legislature with extortion or goodies. Governor Doyle, however, has no such compunction. THAT is the difference between Kansas and Wisconsin.
 
Kansas received there concealed carry bill because of a strong grass roots effort by the people of Kansas. Phone calls, e-mails and electing pro-gun rights legislaturer's helped a great deal. The Governor's office was flooded by phone calls, e-mails and letters also but vetoed it anyway. Steve 48
 
I gave a warning about profanities, so I don't apologize.

In fact, I even cleaned up some language. ;)

We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto. Heck, we're not even in Nebraska.

We're stuck in Wisconsin, with a governor whose Brady ratings are right up there with the worst of the bunch.

We're seven months out from the general election. That's not much time to raise money for Mark Green, JB Van Hollen/Paul Bucher, and all the other candidates for statewide office.

So, let me ask a question of all who are reading this thread (if I don't get enough responses, I'll start a new thread): what reluctance, if any, do you have to contributing to a political action committee that sends contributions straight to pro-CCW candidates?

Honest and forthright answers are much appreciated.
 
Dick,

On a somewhat brighter note. Your bill got voted on, in both houses and passed it was vetoed and passed one house and only missed in the other house by two votes.

Here in Illinois our bill didn't even make it out of committee (IIRC, it didn't even get voted on in committee). You're a lot closer then you think. Maybe next year, maybe the year after. Yes, I know you would have liked to have got it before Kansas and Nebraska. (How's this for a talking point: Kansas and Nebraska thinks their citizens are smarter/more trustworthy then Wisconsin does their own.)

Keep knocking on the door and eventually someone will answer.

what reluctance, if any, do you have to contributing to a political action committee that sends contributions straight to pro-CCW candidates?
Click to expand...

Mrs Scout holds the checkbook. $5.43 cents in the change bucket so far. ;)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top