Kentucky Rifle Trigger

[windini]

I've recently acquired an older Kentucky rifle, percussion, in .45 caliber.

It sat for several decades, according to the previous owner, though he said he cleaned & oiled it before it went into the safe. It has some bbl bluing wear, as well as some pitting in the bore. Nothing unexpected for an older black powder gun.

I've cleaned the bore about as well as I can and plan to take it to the range as soon as I get a decent weather day off.

One thing I'd like to tinker with, if practical, is the trigger pull. It is a single trigger, not a set trigger as far as I can tell. I put a plumbing washer on the nipple to protect it, and tested the trigger pull: three-pull average was 7lbs, 12oz. Yipe!

I have yet to remove the lock mechanism, though that will surely happen, given my life-long penchant for disassembling things. Before I do, can any of the BP Sages here give some insight on how to go about lightening the trigger pull of a "non-adjustable" trigger, or whether it's practical to try?

I'm familiar with the typical methods of changing or trimming coil springs, and lapping mating surfaces of trigger & sear w/o changing the geometry. I also understand how to adjust a double set screw. But I'm not familiar with best practices for this one. Any guidance will be appreciated.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Sear to tumbler engagement is what needs to be changed, if it's a low quality lock it will be case hardened, if you remove material from the tumbler you will most likely get into softer material and will need to reharden it. Go slowly and don't change the geometry. Who made the rifle?

 

[windini]

Sear to tumbler engagement is what needs to be changed, if it's a low quality lock it will be case hardened, if you remove material from the tumbler you will most likely get into softer material and will need to reharden it. Go slowly and don't change the geometry. Who made the rifle?

Thanks, Jackrabbit.

Barrel is marked FIE/Italy, with other marks. I believe it was originally from the 1970's.


Here are 3 pics of the lock mechanism. I'll post more of the trigger guard at the end of this post (with another question, of course!).

At rest


Half cock


Full cock


While lock plate & hammer are case hardened, the spring, sear, and tumbler appear to be in the white. How would that relate to hardness & exposing softer metal leading to excessive wear? My guess is that sear & tumbler are of equal hardness throughout.

Now the trigger & trigger guard. I would like to remove the steel trigger, de-rust-ificate it, then reblue. But I can't seem to wiggle it out of the one-piece, enclosed guard! Clearly, they were two at some point... Trigger will slide outside the plane of the guard on the right side, but not the left. It will come down only so far before the top of the trigger (the "pusher," in my layman's mind) becomes wedged in the slot in the brass guard. I'd rather not pound on it to get it out. Suggestions?

 

[arcticap]

I'm curious about whether the lock is as stiff to release when not using the trigger blade, but by doing it manually.
And how much of an improvement can be obtained by cleaning, greasing, adjusting screws and/or perhaps polishing without altering the sear?

If you can't manipulate the trigger enough to remove it, then I guess it would either need to be bent or the slot needs to be enlarged somehow.
But if it was inserted without bending it, then it should be able to come out without bending it.
Maybe it just needs some taps and more manipulation?

 

[windini]

Maybe it just needs some taps and more manipulation?

Thanks for weighing in, Arcticap.

Ol' Trigger and I had a little meeting, and I persuaded him to come around to my way of thinkin'! The trigger wasn't quite in a flat plane, so I gave it a minor tweak with 2 pairs of pliers... a friendly tap or three from the ball pein persuader later, and it was free.

As for the lock, we're on the same page. I've degreased the mechanism, and am contemplating further disassembly (I just can't help myself). There is some rust on the lock plate behind the spring, which is causing some drag. If I remove all the parts, I could polish that surface and clean/smooth the other contact surfaces, then re-grease on reassembly, which would certainly help.

However, while that might smooth things a bit, I think any significant lightening of the trigger pull would have to come from a different or modified spring. I don't know how to that - it's not like removing a coil. The contact surfaces are pretty sharp, and I could debur, maybe remove machining marks from them, but my gut is that that's a pretty stiff spring.

I might have to live with it. But I'm still open to suggestions!

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Lock looks like one of the old Spanish jukar locks, I would look at possible trigger replacement instead, sometimes a different trigger with the pivot hole in a different spot can help lighten the pull by changing the fulcrum point.

 

[windini]

sometimes a different trigger with the pivot hole in a different spot can help lighten the pull by changing the fulcrum point.

Hmmmm... more leverage! Thanks - would not have though of that.

 

[arcticap]

I might have to live with it. But I'm still open to suggestions!

Sometimes I feel like a broken record, but there's a specialty grease that can be helpful mentioned in this post. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...be-trigger-job-in-a-jar.873102/#post-11599308

 

[windini]

Sometimes I feel like a broken record, but there's a specialty grease that can be helpful mentioned in this post. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...be-trigger-job-in-a-jar.873102/#post-11599308

On the contrary! As a newbie here at THR, I appreciate the links. I do a site search for keywords before posting, 'cause I know any issue or question I may have has probably been dealt with here a decade ago... Site searches being somewhat limited in terms of usable search terms, it's helpful to get a lead to a top, trick or longer & more detailed discussion from before.

 

[windini]

^^^^^^^
Ha ha! What I shoulda said:

On the contrary! As...[click]
On the contrary! As...[click]
On the contrary! As...[click]

Younger viewers may not get the reference...

 

[arcticap]

On the contrary! As a newbie here at THR, I appreciate the links. I do a site search for keywords before posting, 'cause I know any issue or question I may have has probably been dealt with here a decade ago... Site searches being somewhat limited in terms of usable search terms, it's helpful to get a lead to a top, trick or longer & more detailed discussion from before.

Looking at the reviews on the Pyramid Air website for this Air Venturi Moly Metal-to-Metal Paste, RonaldDale posted on April 28, 2017:

"I got on "Air Venturi" web-site and asked them, how much moly was in their product. This is what Tony B. sent me. (Air Venturi) Apr 26, 13:11 EDT Hello Ronald, I've seen both 65% and 70% listed for this paste. Hope this helps." --->>> https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_Moly_Metal_to_Metal_Paste_1_oz/3498#Reviews

Keyword - molybdenum

 

[Acorn Mush]

Windini, just a couple of quick observations.
1. The diameter of the tumbler shaft appears to be quite a bit smaller than the hole in the bridal it projects through. If so, you may want to consider making a simple bushing to eliminate slop between the parts. It also may just be a misperception on my part of the actual dimensions, due to the camera angle or my poor eyesight.
2. The half-cock notch looks more like a deep full-cock notch. It does not appear to have a "hook" on the bottom to capture the sear nose to prevent the hammer dropping without first drawing it to full-cock. Is this how it looks to you?

At any rate, best of luck in your effort to put the ol' iron back in service.

 

[windini]

Windini, just a couple of quick observations.
1. The diameter of the tumbler shaft appears to be quite a bit smaller than the hole in the bridal it projects through. If so, you may want to consider making a simple bushing to eliminate slop between the parts. It also may just be a misperception on my part of the actual dimensions, due to the camera angle or my poor eyesight.
2. The half-cock notch looks more like a deep full-cock notch. It does not appear to have a "hook" on the bottom to capture the sear nose to prevent the hammer dropping without first drawing it to full-cock. Is this how it looks to you?

At any rate, best of luck in your effort to put the ol' iron back in service.

Thanks, Acorn M.!

It does look like the tumbler shaft is a bit small. I don't remember there being excessive slop when I dismantled it (I did it! I had to!), though that may have been a result of spring tension masking any wobble. I've been cleaning & polishing the parts; I'll check for slop when I get back to it. The bridle is brass, but I don't have any brass stock or a drill press set up. I do have a piece of HDPE I could drill out to make a bushing, ay least for the short term, if necessary.

As for the half-cock notch, derp? If it is a deep full cock notch, what would be the point, and why have it with the hammer in that position (pretty far down)? Not being snarky, I'm trying to understand. At half cock, the hammer is still too far down to get a cap on the nipple, at least without violating child labor laws! My fingers aren't big, but they ain't tiny, neither!

I see the half cock notch is "stepped," and the full cock notch has a cut or groove, but it is too small for the rebated sear nose to fit into.

Purpose? I'm all ears.


This pic also reminds me: the rim of the lower screw hole in the brass bridle is very thin on the R side. Could be low-quality original manufacturing, or could be wallowed out from steel screw torquing against brass due to slop in the tumbler pin/bridle hole.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

You definitely should fix that bridle, tuning the lock without fixing that would be a waste of time. Acorn M, good eyes on that safety notch, it does need work as well. Almost more cost effective to make a new bridle than to fiddle with the original. Just saying.

 

[windini]

I looked at the bridle/tumbler again last night. The picture is deceptive; the amount of wobble in the mated parts is minimal - it is barely noticeable, and I seriously doubt I could fashion a bushing of small enough diameter/close enough tolerance.

Having just written that, I remembered I do have some shim material kickin' around here somewhere; hmmm.

Another potential issue, and what you may be seeing as diameter mismatch, is that the post is significantly shorter than the depth of the hole (thickness) of the bridle. Thus the bridle is casting a shadow that (may) look like a crescent of excess space.

@Jackrabbit1957 , I may one day have the means & time to make a new bridle, but my current set-up - not to mention my skill level! - does not lend itself to such a task. Fortunately, I enjoy tinkering. Most of the time.

So - the half cock/safety notch needs a hook or lip! I think I get that now. If I file the notch deeper, so the sear sits farther in and up to the shoulder on the sear would this, in effect, make a hook out of the bottom portion of the notch? Or is geometry required?


Ultimately, the goal is to learn about how this lock functions while making this rifle a decent shooter. Given the pitting in the bore and the condition of the rifling, I doubt it will ever become a match rifle.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Main thing on the safety notch is to make sure the sear will pass it when the trigger is pulled. Have seen safety notches damaged by the sear as the tumbler went by because of improper geometry, locks that are designed for set triggers have fly built in to the tumbler so the sear rides over and past the safety notch. As to barrel having pitted rifling , not a real concern, look at crown, if it's pitted then accuracy will suffer, real easy fix if that's the case.

 

[Acorn Mush]

Windini, from your pictures it sure looks as if the half-cock notch is broken. If you will only be shooting the rifle on a range then it should present no problem because one should never rely on that notch as a real safety in the first place (step to the firing line, draw to full-cock, cap only when ready to shoot).

If you know someone who is a skillful welder, perhaps they could add some weld material at the bottom of the notch. Then the hook could be reshaped. After the work is done the tumbler would need to be re-hardened.

Hoping your efforts prove enjoyable and fruitful.

 

[StrawHat]

I think you would be better off saving your money for a better rifle. Jukars have not had much of a reputation for good reason.


Kevin

 

[4v50 Gary]

Sometimes it's the position between the trigger and the sear lever. I think it's the closer the pivot point of the trigger to the sear, the harder the pull. Trouble is that the maker/builder determined that and could have messed it up.

 

[windini]

it sure looks as if the half-cock notch is broken.

First, a huge THANK YOU to Acorn Mush! Upon closer examination - and by that I mean modern photography & magnification to bring it into the realm of visibility to my old eyes! - it seems that this is the case.


That does look like sheared metal. This is a safety limitation that I would have missed, since I didn't quite understand how the parts worked together. I'm hunting up a replacement tumbler, but until one turns up, I now know not to carry this'n capped an ready in the woods.

This brings up another point.

I think you would be better off saving your money for a better rifle. Jukars have not had much of a reputation for good reason.


Kevin

Yep, this is not a very high quality rifle, but I was under no illusions when I bought it. The price was right, I got to meet a & talk with the seller, who is great guy who builds long distance smokeless muzzle loaders, and I knew it was going to need some attention. I took it on as a project. While I would like to be able to hunt with it, I have other options for muzzle loading hunting, so it isn't my last best hope in that regard.

I understand how some might consider this wasted time & money, but I've gotten a LOT of knowledge and restoration experience out of this one already, and, if I screw it up, I'm out my time, but not a lot of money, and I haven't destroyed a more valuable rifle!

@4v50 Gary , thanks- I was trying to figure out the relation between fulcrum & object prior to becoming concerned about the safety notch. I'm going to try some moly paste in the lock and see if that makes the trigger acceptable. Maybe I'll tweak the leverage relationship if that doesn't do it.

Thanks for all the valuable input! I'm learnin' a lot here...

 

[Big Bore 44]

Give us some pics of the rest of the markings. FIE reportedly imported some of the rifles from Pietta, these have long been discontinued.

 

[windini]

Give us some pics of the rest of the markings. FIE reportedly imported some of the rifles from Pietta, these have long been discontinued.

Ask, and ye shall receive! Here are the barrel markings. I can't fnd any "official" markings anywhere else, but there's a hand- penciled "96" on the end of the buttstock & a hand-scratched "96" on the underside of the brass butt plate.


EDIT: From what I've been able to find, it's a 1975 year of mfg, Gardone V.T. black powder proof, but the Brescia or Gardone proof house mark is too blurry to read; I'll look again in a bit.

I can't find anything even close to the last stamping, the one closest to the rear sight. It looks partial or worn, but no luck finding it yet.

 

[Big Bore 44]

Found it! It is part of the logo of Ruschetta Pierino (PR) . FIE imported a lot of their arms from this maker. Mostly revolvers, I didn't know that they made long arms though.

 

[windini]

Found it! It is part of the logo of Ruschetta Pierino (PR) . FIE imported a lot of their arms from this maker. Mostly revolvers, I didn't know that they made long arms though.

Thanks Big Bore 44! Going to look them up.

 

[Big Bore 44]

You won't find much, I believe they've been out of business for a decade or so. Using Duck Duck Go, most of what I found is in Italiano.