Kirchner on dueling -- and what would modern dueling look like?

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I recently read a terrific book by Paul Kirchner, who's known for his illustrations of Col. Jeff Cooper's books but is a fine writer in his own right: DUELING WITH THE SWORD AND PISTOL: 400 YEARS OF ONE-ON-ONE COMBAT. The book is what you'd expect from the title -- lots and lots of accounts of duels, famous and obscure, fought afoot, on horseback, with swords, knives, pistols, rifles, as well as some profiles of noteworthy duellists. You can get the book on Amazon here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1581604580/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all

Note that one of the sellers is PKirchner_45 -- that's the author, and if you buy from him he'll happily sign it for you.

Anyway, aside from such wonderful entries as the duel fought on horseback by an enraged dwarf; or the battle among French king Henri III's gay favorites, the mignons, who were the objects of some contempt but proved themselves plenty tough and became admired when a duel between two of them turned into a general hack-and-slash festival; or the two Mexican senoritas who grabbed swords and fought a topless duel over the man who was dating both of them -- the book raises a really interesting subject that I hadn't thought much about: the code duello was designed to minimize lethality. People died in duels, plenty of 'em, but often (even usually, in later years) the object was just to demonstrate that the parties were not afraid and that honor had been satisfied. So folks would use smoothbore pistols at distance, and stop on injuries of note, or after a few exchanges, that sort of thing.

Which got me wondering: with that as a stricture, how would people fight duels today, if the duelling ideology had persisted? Modern firearms are danged accurate, and I certainly wouldn't care to trade shots with anybody who even half knew what he was doing at the ranges they used in the old days. The possibilities that come to mind would be really long range: large-caliber revolver duels, Elmer Keith style, or thousand-yard rifle duels. Even then, duels with modern equipment would probably be *way* more likely to be lethal than duels of days gone by.

(Kirchner draws an interesting contrast between the European and American systems: the old, aristocratic way involved the formalized code duello, but on the American frontier, a different system evolved: the challenger advised the challenged party something along the lines of, "Next time I see you, you'd best be armed!" ...and then tried to ambush the object of his ire whenever or wherever. That actually reminds me of a lot of the drunken/enraged homicides of today -- the ones that begin with the aggressor saying, "I'm gonna get my gun and come back here!")

Anyway, the book's a really fun read; check it out.
 
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I will buy this book. I can't bring up Kirchner on search and I'd like a signed copy.

Little help?

Biker
 
Biker: sorry if anything wasn't clear. I just switched the link in my original post, above, so if you click it now, it'll just take you straight to the list of all the people selling copies via Amazon. The guy whose name appears as PKirchner_45 is the author; you can follow the usual Amazon routine to buy from him.
 
Obliged, Well-Armed Lamb.

I'm looking forward to reading that bad boy.

Biker
 
2 matched 1911's, field stripped and in pieces in a box with a loaded mag.

On the signal you have to put it together, load and fire :)
 
OK, the problem here is that in the past "Gentlemen" fought duels, while commoners ambushed, waylaid, drygulched or just plain fought it out with the object of their agrievement.

Sad to say, there are no "Gentlemen" any more, not even by Act of Congress.

In the past, challenges of a duel were issued on points of honor, not on merely being "disrespected" (which I believe is no more a word than "agaievement"). Points of honor were things like honesty (being accused of cheating at cards), integrity (following through on one's proposal of marriage to the challenger's sister, as opposed to ditching her at the altar), and "true love" (determining which of two suitors would win the hand of the fair maiden both sought). Points of honor had nothing to do with who should get the last parking space right in front of the bigbox store, or whose team hass more ex-felons playing first string.

There was no call for a "gentleman" to issue a challenge if another "gentleman" trod upon his instep, as the other "gentleman" would immediately apologize for his clumsiness. If no apology were forthcoming, it was proof that the other was no "gentleman" - and a "gentleman" did not recognize a commoner as being worthy of attention, unless it was to forthrightly smack him back into place.

Today there are darned few "gentlemen", so I do not believe there would be many, if any, duels. What we might get would be less-well correographed episodes of WWE or American Gladiator. There are no seconds, no inquiries if there is a possibility of an apology being issued and accepted, or questions of whether or not the agrieved party is satisfied with the extent of the wound inflicted when the offending party has been hit/touched but not lying dead upon the ground.

Oh! Would that there were "gentlemen" in the world today! Oh! Would that commoners aspired to some day act like "gentlemen" even if they knew they could never really be one!

But that might mean we would have to go back to wearing knee-breeches and powdered wigs. I'm not too concerned about the wig thing, but let me assure you that you do not want to see my legs.

And as for those oversized coats - just how do you expect me to wipe my nose with all those buttons in the way?

stay safe.

skidmark (who aspires to rise to the level of a commoner one day)
 
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where dat 40 wit da sites on da side.............i feeliz like some drive-by

a bit low road of me but 2 drive-bys last nite and the sun aint hardly down that there were 2 more innercity today. oddly, non of the 'victums' have any idea who shot at them (3 assorted wounded) and there were (gasp) no witnesses.
 
I think SKidmark offers a very good explanation oft he reason the art of the honorable dual died out here. It wasnt due to laws, increase in the deadlyness of weapons, becoming "more civilized" and giving up a "barbaric practice" etc, but because of a severe lack of "gentlemen" or "honor" in modern society to contine the practice. We went from 2 men alone fighting duels in a strict form, with clear, agreed upon rules,here the dispute was ended with the loser honorably bowing out to the victor, as a way to rseolve matters of honor, to a socety where being "dishonored" meant someone stepped on your $150 Nike's in a club,or not acknowledging your superior pimped out car, or who is the better dancer, or was wearing more gold chains, and simply gunning the offending party down on the spot, or ambushing and murdering them at a later date with the backup of friends, family, etc in a murderous, cowardly manner, over the mildest of perceived slights or insults. We didnt become more civilized, honorable and less barbaric, we became less civilized, more barbaric, and without true courage and honor. From mutual combat, to cowardly murder.
All that ranting and speculation aside, sounds like an interesting book.I'll have to check it out.
 
to a socety where being "dishonored" meant someone stepped on your $150 Nike's in a club

Oh come on. The Burr-Hamilton duel was fought over little more than that if you will be honest in your reading of it.

There is no "honor" in placing your life, God given, on the line for little more than a pissing contest over politics and who might have plagiarized what or who wrote something "mean" about who in the newspaper, or taking the life that God gave another man because he called you bad names.

Good riddance to a moronic practice.

There's no honor in that at all.

Dueling over insulting someones wife is no different than the gangs on the streets today doing drive by's for insulting their "colors".
 
There is no "honor" in placing your life, God given, on the line for little more than a pissing contest over politics and who might have plagiarized what or who wrote something "mean" about who in the newspaper, or taking the life that God gave another man because he called you bad names.

Even in the Samurai days dueling over trifles was frowned upon. Oda Nobunaga got tired of his soldiers killing each other like "dogs in the mud" and so issued an edict that survivors of duels be executed without exception. It worked. There is no honor in being a hothead. It was universally frowned upon in many warrior cultures in the past with good reason.
 
There is no "honor" in placing your life, God given, on the line for little more than a pissing contest over politics and who might have plagiarized what or who wrote something "mean" about who in the newspaper, or taking the life that God gave another man because he called you bad names.
Not disagreeing, but at least back then,it as done with the conent of the 2 people involved, and was restricted to the 2 people who agreed to be involved only. I dont recall ever hearing of 8 year old girls, or anyone for that matter) accidentaly killed during a formal duel, like we have now with murder/revenge drivebys, shootings in crowds, on public streets, etc.At least if those willling to kill/die over "honor", or a perceived slight thereof, did it in a formal, consentual duel, the death and injury would be limited to the 2 consenting adults involved only, and no one else.If 2 grown adults want to agree to try and kill each other for some reason,I say let them.But I would appreciate if they did it in a place, manner, and time that didnt put others at risk.Let them Darwin Award each other, cleanse the gene pool, and leave the rest of us alone and unharmed.
 
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The Flame War is today's Duel.
Just as it was true then, it is true now: you can't win a fight with a fool. He will drag you down to his level, then beat you with experience.

That said, fightin' duels happen all the time, especially with younger folks (I suspect that was true then, too). On more than once occasion each year I get two hot headed parties together in my room, and tell them quash it. Just as it was then, it is the job of today's authorities to make dueling so unpleasant in the aftermath that fools don't feel honor bound to engage in it.
 
ut I would appreciate if they did it in a place, manner, and time that didnt put others at risk.Let them Darwin WAward each other, cleanse the gene pool, and leave the rest of us alone and unharmed.

I'm OK with that but let's not in any way claim that it was "honorable"
 
I'm all for legalized duelling. And yes, for the men involved, it can be a matter of honor.

Biker
 
Duelling in the old days was as much about class as anything else. In Europe, 'commoners' didn't duel, only those who where above the law (or subject to a higher law) could fight a duel. Duels between lawyers and journalists are a major indicator of the rise in importance of the middle class, a sign that they are subject to different rules than normal people.

Here in America, duelling was not only an offshoot of a frontier mentality, it was also a way of proving that common men had the same privilege as the aristocrats of the Old World, the privilege of proving one's personal sense of worth through force of arms.
 
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