Knife wounds - thrust vs. cut?

[Skofnung]

Man, talk about reviving an old thread.

Here are my observations on the matter:

I’ve been taking Modern Arnis for almost a year now, and in that time, my notions of fighting with edged weapons has changed. Prior to this, I had done some WMA style fencing, and was thus dedicated to the primacy of the stab.

I still think that as a killing stroke with a long blade, the stab is superior to the cut 75% of the time. However, I’ve come to find that the short blades that we carry today as backup defensive weapons are not as well suited for this application.

For example, when I first started Arnis, I would feint and stab with the padded training knife, going directly for the kill. I’m pretty quick, and I almost always landed the stab, but just about every time, I was either counter stabbed or cut in a vital area before I could disengage. I’ve since adopted the aforementioned strategy of cutting up the opponent’s hands or otherwise immobilizing the threat as opposed to going directly “in for the kill.”

It’s amazing what you can learn when you actually go full speed with training weapons. You tend to lose many of your preconceived notions.

It may sound cliché, but truly, the more I learn about fighting with blades, the more I realize that I want no part of a knife fight.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Gray...

Meant to mention earlier - the Pikal approach reminds me of a fellow I met, a home remodeler, who was inclined to reach for any of the claw-like linoleum knives he used in the course of his occupation.
That sure looked like something/someone I would not want to tangle with at all. I'm with Skofnung on this knife fight gig!

 

[usmccpl]

If the question is stab or cut then the answer WWJBD. What would Jim Bowie do. He would do both thrust in edge up stabbing deep then make a ripping cut as he pull out.If the question is to kill or maim a sentry first ask do I want to take prisoners,then ask if he yells will I be caught by his friends. If you say yes to the first question and no to the second then disable him. If you need the stealth and not prisoners then kill him.If you cut through his diaphragm he cant scream.If you cut through all the connecting tissue in his arms he cant fight with them.




one shot one kill

 

[RyanM]

I think I remember reading that an ancient Korean general once said of swords, "the thrust wounds faster, but the slash is faster to deliver."

2. Slashes and cuts seemed to do far more to incapacitate the victim than did thrusts. The blood loss was vastly greater, and the shock of the wound was seemingly much more difficult to withstand - perhaps because more nerves were involved, or more tissue was damaged?

Are you sure the actual blood loss was greater? Or just the overall "bloodiness" of the victim and the surrounding area? Big ol' slashes will bleed externally a lot more than stab wounds, which will bleed almost entirely internally. Anyone who's had severe pneumonia will be able to tell you (er, unless they're dead of course), the lungs can hold a lot of fluid in them.

Also, the fact that prison shanks are the weapons in these cases may be the deciding factor. Just from the very few prison shanks I've seen in my sheltered existance, it seems like they are typically designed to either stab or slash, but most will not do both very well.

An ice-pick type stabbing implement with no sharp edge won't do much damage to major blood vessels unless it hits them directly. Hits to internal organs may be narrow enough that they'll seal themselves when the blade is withdrawn, because of the elasticity of tissue.

A knife-shaped hunk of metal, sharpened on concrete, may be capable of taking a sharp enough edge to cut, maybe even cut very well, but won't sever blood vessels on a stab nearly as easily as an actual knife (provided the knife is extremely sharp). Even broadhead arrows can push arteries aside rather than slice through them, if they aren't razor sharp.

 

[JohnKSa]

I’m pretty quick, and I almost always landed the stab, but just about every time, I was either counter stabbed or cut in a vital area before I could disengage. I’ve since adopted the aforementioned strategy of cutting up the opponent’s hands or otherwise immobilizing the threat as opposed to going directly “in for the kill.”

Exactly my experience and my conclusion.

 

[JShirley]

Yeah...with wooden knives with padded sleeves, my hands have taken a beating. Some of us tend be, uh, committed...

John

 

[Cosmoline]

were able to live long enough to get to hospital

That's the key right there. Before the last century, stabs were far worse than slashes because death was almost 100% certain if the central body cavity was pierced and an infection started. Very few surgeons dared try to operate there.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

In HTH (aka:CQB) with a knife, whether or not the guy succumbs to his wounds after you are dead or left the area is irrelevant. You have to immobilize the opponent, or part of the opponent's body, to stop the attacks upon yourself. Ignoring the lucky blow, the slash tends to disable, thus giving you a much greater advantage. The thrust tends to cause mortal wounds, some instantaneous, some after a few seconds, if directed to the upper torso or neck/head. The British Commando knife, sometimes called the Sykes-Fairbain (hope I spelled it right) was designed to allow the fighter to slash, BUT more important, to deliver a fatal stab. The Bowie knife mentioned above, was big, scary, and very heavy. Accounts of that knife detail how the users carved each other up - meaning it took a while for the blood loss to take its toll. Users of the Arkansaw toothpick, similar in many ways to the British knife 100 years later, killed opponents with thrusts, quite fast.

The problem with Kali (Arnis, Escrima) practice is that you dont experience the disabling from the slash, before you deliver the poke (0r get poked) from the practice knife. You can't properly judge how disabled you or your partner really would be from slashing, before you delivered your thrust. So you might have really crippled the guy, and a thrust would've finished him off without his being able to stick you too, but he's still fighting at 100% 'cause the practice blades don't cause wounds.

ITF have your teacher watch and stop you when either gets a good slash, and have the teacher then require one of you to fight without using the damaged limb, OR start off assuming one of you has a disabled limb, and see what happens.

The longer you take in such a fight, the less likely you are to survive.

LD

 

[Skofnung]

Yeah...with wooden knives with padded sleeves, my hands have taken a beating. Some of us tend be, uh, committed...

John

Yup. I usually have at least a few abrasions on my hands/wrists after class, and a few weeks ago I even got a nice little hematoma on the back of my right hand… and I don’t bruise easily. I’m certainly not complaining though, I enjoy every minute of it.

The problem with Kali (Arnis, Escrima) practice is that you dont experience the disabling from the slash, before you deliver the poke (0r get poked) from the practice knife. You can't properly judge how disabled you or your partner really would be from slashing, before you delivered your thrust. So you might have really crippled the guy, and a thrust would've finished him off without his being able to stick you too, but he's still fighting at 100% 'cause the practice blades don't cause wounds.

To a certain extent, I agree with you. However, certain things need to be taken into account. First off, we’ve all received wounds from various things in our lives that we were not immediately aware of, some of which were serious. Couple that with adrenaline and you may have an opponent with arterial bleeding that continues to fight for several seconds after… A lot can happen in two or three seconds in a fight.

Even if one were to hit something that would cause the opponent to fold right out (tendons, CNS, broken bones) the opponent could still be a serious threat just by falling forward upon you.

My contention is that practice is better than none. Yes, our practice opponent won’t react as if cut or stabbed, but how do you know how a given real life opponent will react? Just like a shooting, there are thousands of variables that could come into play… adrenaline, drugs, natural pain tolerance, size/weight, fatty padding, the list goes on.

ITF have your teacher watch and stop you when either gets a good slash,

There is no way in a full speed sparring match that an instructor could stop either opponent in time. The action versus reaction time involved for a third party is too long. Our instructor observes, and comments afterwards on what he observed. That, and my sparring partners and I try to check our egos at the door, thus operating on the honor system. Hands just fly too fast for verbal intervention.

 

[Skofnung]

Oh yhea, on the subject of cut versus thrust, I suggest reading Paradoxes of Defense by George Silver.

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

He was not without bias, but he makes some very good points.

 

[JShirley]

There were some very good- and fast- players when I trained at BAD. It was usually pretty obvious when I was getting carved up- unlike rubber knives, the foam sleeves just put a barrier between a hard surface and you. Still stung like hell...I usually ended pretty pissed, and eager to hold a weapon with some standoff ability!

 

[Harold Mayo]

It's always interesting when old posts surface again.

My views on some things have changed in the last three years. After studying some of what "SouthNarc" teaches (see www.shivworks.com and www.totalprotectioninteractive.com), I've become a convert to the use of a defensive knife in the reverse grip with the edge in. Other stuff is interesting and could be useful but, for many reasons, I'm now a proponent of this stuff.

It's not really the damage that can be done that is my concern but I've been won over by the viewing of the use of a knife in context. I've never heard in real life of any two guys getting in a protracted "knife duel" a la "West Side Story" or something like that. I HAVE had experience with multiple opponents mobbing a single guy who is on the defensive and has to deploy a weapon quickly and use it effectively in a confined space and under stress, perhaps even without the ability to see much. In a situation like that, which is reality, a fixed-bladed knife used in a reverse grip, edge in, makes the most sense to me.

 

[Harold Mayo]

As for knowing everything...? I think that my posts just showed a growth in knowledge from three years ago. Part of why I posted. Everything? I've rarely made that claim...

Difference between practice and theory? Not if you're working off of the right theory. There is, after all, a REASON to train and it's NOT so that you can NOT do something correctly.

As for defending myself with a weapon...? Yes, I have.

As for my statements in this particular thread...? Well...if you had read them, I don't think you'd be running that mouth.

As for me deciding whose views get to be heard here...? No, you're right. I don't. But, with your attitude and language, you're making that decision easy for those who DO decide.

 

[ocelot777]

sorry Harold

you are totally correct.
I apologise unreservedly for my rudeness.
I still think think that real experience outranks "practice" (but I do practise of course).

 

[Harold Mayo]

Real-world experience is worth more than practice but you're a lot more likely to do well when that real-world experience presents itself if you've practiced realistically first. The real world is a hard teacher. I much prefer to be a little prepared for it before going out into it.

 

[ocelot777]

yes

I agree.

You (I think) know about these things my brother

regards

geoff

 

[JShirley]

I reckon we've said enough about the subject for now. Y'all start a new thread if you feel a need for a sequel.

John