Kobra or Ultimak/Red Dot for SAR-1?

[benEzra]

OK, I've decided I want an unmagnified optic on my SAR-1. The POSP 4x24 is great, but I want something I can use for close-range shooting out to 200 yards.

I was originally going to go with an Ultimak rail and a Wal-Mart red dot for budget reasons, either a BSA 30mm or a Tasco ProPoint 42mm. However, someone in another thread pointed out that I can get a Kobra for about the same price.

My question is, which is the better sight? I know parallax can be a problem for red dots; is the Kobra parallax free? What does the Kobra do for the rifle's balance compared to a scout scope, and does having the optic that close to your eye make close-range shooting more difficult than with a scout scope?

If I go with a Kobra, are there multiple models? If so, which one is best?

 

[MechAg94]

I believe the Kobra's are $200 or less. I thought the Ultimak rail was in the $500 range. Could be wrong.

I have a side mount rail with scope on my Vepr and it doesn't seem to affect balance. The Vepr is a little heavier though. Those side mount rails are mostly aluminum I think and are pretty lightweight.

Sorry I couldn't help you much.

 

[benEzra]

Ultimak rail itself is around $100, but that plus a $400 EOTech is probably the closest thing to a Kobra outside of a Kobra itself.

I can't afford an Eotech, so I'd be looking at a cheap Wal-Mart red dot ($50ish) on the $100 rail. Though I'm leaning a little toward the Kobra on a "quality for the money" calculus...

 

[Coronach]

I have not used a Kobra or an Ultimak rail, but I have used a OKO Holosight on a weaver adapter for the side scope mount. Here is what I counsider to be the main drawback of such a design:

Your scope sits really high above the normal sight plane. This requires you to either use a cheek pad or rely upon less than idea 'jaw weld' as opposed to good cheek weld. From just eyeballing it, the OKO+weaver adapter arrangement seems to sit at about the same height as the Kobra. IMO, that's just to high without doing something (cheeckpiece) to adapt to it.

The ultimak and a low-sitting red dot like that an Aimpoint would seem to be a much more elegant solution. More expensive, though.

Mike

 

[clange]

The height issue is really the only downside IMO. With a normal stock, its not too bad. With a romanian wire folding stock, its a pain.

I dont know if they're parallax free or not. I dont know how to tell.

The rearward postion works fine with both eyes open. I cant imagine a scout mount would be a great improvement. They're both 1x optics that you use with both eyes open, I dont see how having it farther down the gun would make you pick it up any faster. If anything, I'd think having it closer to the eye would help the tube/ring around the lense 'disappear 'more. With a kobra its just like a ret floating out in space, like a laser sight with no range.

But, I havent used a scout mount. Maybe theres something I'm missing.

There are basically 2 versions of the kobra with built in mounts. The EKP-1S-03M which takes AA batteries, and the newer EKP-8-02 which takes coin batteries and has the controls moved to the right. I personally like the 03M because it takes AAs, but the controls on the right would deffinately be better IMO. It also looks like the 8-02 sits slightly higher, but I'm not sure.

Theres an 03M for sale at ak47.net at the moment..
http://ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=123&t=321181

 

[Dave Markowitz]

I had a Kobra sight and while it was great for fast target acquisition, the adjustment mechanism sucks. I've also had a PK-01V sight which used an AK side rail mount with extended rings to center it over the receiver. Unfortunately, it up and died on me. Anyway, based on using these two setups, the Ultimak with a quality red dot sight is a better option.

I would not trust one of the $30 BSA red dots you can get at Wally World to handle AK recoil for hundreds of rounds. I had such a sight on my Marlin Camp 45 and it lasted 110 rounds before losing the ability to retain zero.

My recommendation would be an Ultimak then a decent dot sight like a Tasco Pro Point or a Millet, unless of couse you can save up for an EOTech, Aimpoint, or Trijicon unit. Cheap optics are a sure way to raise your blood pressure.

 

[clange]

I had a Kobra sight and while it was great for fast target acquisition, the adjustment mechanism sucks.

Its a pain in the ass to set, but a good thing about them is a ridiculous amount of adjustment range. The rail on my SAR-3 was off a bit, and it put the POI about 10 inches low at 15 yards maybe. I just cranked the dial of the kobra like 10 times or whatever and got it to where it needed to be.

 

[benEzra]

Do the EKP-1S-03M and the EKP-8-02 have the same reticles? Does the EKP-1S-03M have the chevron reticle as one of the options? How does the weight compare?

I dont know if they're parallax free or not. I dont know how to tell.

Does the point of impact change depending on whether or not your eye is centered in the lens? With a red dot, if you move your head left, right, up, and down, the POI will change slightly (couple inches at 50 yards for some sights). I don't think the holographic sights are as susceptible to parallax error, but I may be wrong (and I also don't know if the Kobra is a holographic sight or more like a fancy red dot).

I would not trust one of the $30 BSA red dots you can get at Wally World to handle AK recoil for hundreds of rounds. I had such a sight on my Marlin Camp 45 and it lasted 110 rounds before losing the ability to retain zero.

My overall budget for this project is $200 max, and the rail itself is $100-ish. I'm selling my POSP and doing some odd jobs to fund it, so an Aimpoint on an Ultimak are out for the time being.

 

[benEzra]

Answered a couple of my own questions. The weight is within a few grams of each other, and the reticles are the same.

 

[benEzra]

Here's a reply from Tantal (he's great):

KOBRA SIGHTS:

GEN 1+ KOBRA SIGHT

EKP-1S-03M (KALASHNIKOV SIDE MOUNTING)

USES REGULAR AA BATTERIES

LATEST 2004 PRODUCTION! Newly upgraded after extensive use on the Chechen battlefields, combat sight EKP-1S-03M is the latest version of the original side mounting AK model using AA battery type. Versions of this sight have been identified in photographs of SPETsNAZ forces in action in Chechnya, attached to the mounts of Russian AK-74M rifles.

Model -03M has several improvements designed for severe use, including a reinforced, finned mounting bracket that offers more rigidity and strength over all previous models. Advantages over previous models include a much stronger, rock solid mounting bracket, and regular AA battery operation. It is also the only model currently offered with the popular rubber anti-glint hood, commonly referred to as a "sun shield".

Compared to other optical aids, Kobra most closely matches the performance, range, and primary strengths of the Kalashnikov rifle. It has the ability to make the shooter more effective as a small arms operator by enabling him to acquire targets more rapidly, aim without the need to align sights, and pay more attention to the surrounding field of view while keep both eyes open. We have found that most people who have tried the sight are extremely happy with it, and have become more accurate and enjoy using it over the iron sights

Kobra is shipped to you with full accessories (in original factory packaging) to include new high quality batteries, rubber "sun shield" hood, manual, cleaning cloth and manual. This model uses standard 1.5 volt AA batteries and has 4 improved reticle patterns. Includes the newest design ballistic nylon belt carried field case in authentic Russian camouflage patterns. These will fit all forms of European AK side mounting plates (bases). If you do not have one, we also carry Russian designed mounting base installation kits.

EKP-1S-03M Kobra combat sight, for AK side mounting, uses AA batteries, mint new in factory packaging SALE! $179.95 (+ $5.85 shipping) IN STOCK

http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/media/74mkob001.JPG



EKP-8-02

GENERATION II

SIDE MOUNTING AK VERSION

EKP-8-02 is currently under evaluation by various Russian special forces. Developed using feedback gained on the Chechen battlefields, this version offers improved performance and ergonomics. Out of the box, this unit will fit the side mounting plate of the AK rifles to include SAR series, Saiga based models (AK-103), Vepr I and II, Arsenal, 74MP, MPK, etc., and is shipped to you (in original factory packing) with one new battery, special adjusting tool, cleaning cloth, and manual. EKP-8-02 uses an standard 3V keyless remote/calculator coin type lithium battery.

EKP-8-02 features include a slightly raised optical lens for an unobstructed field of view, ergonomically positioned right side weatherized controls with easy to adjust sure-grip range and windage dials, weatherproofed assembly (and battery compartment), and higher cold weather performance due to the battery type.

Four improved reticle patterns (changed at the push of a button), and 16 brightness variations offers limitless flexibility. Includes a newly redesigned ballistic nylon belt carried field case currently available in Russian Woodland or MVD Taiga camouflage pattern.

Kobra EKP-8-02 will fit all forms of European AK side mounting plates. If you do not have an optics side plate on your rifle, we also carry Russian designed MPK and 74MP models, listed below. Buy the sight and side plate as a set and the side plate is sold at a discount (see below).

EKP-8-02 Generation 2 model SALE! $179.95 (+ $5.85 shipping) IN STOCK

http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/high/G204.jpg

http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/high/G205.jpg

I'm leaning toward a Kobra, based on the fact that I won't be able to afford a decent optic to put on the Ultimak if I go that route, and the Wal-Mart red dots seem to be of questionable durability (thanks for the heads-up, Dave). At least the Kobras are mil-spec, even if they are somewhat more bulky.

Of the two Kobras, I think I like the EKP-8-02 (Gen II) better, mainly because of the less obstructed field of view. I have a Radio Shack a couple blocks from my house, so getting batteries for it won't be a problem.

Thanks for all the feedback!

 

[AK103K]

I think the Ultimak is really the way to go. The forward mounted sight is out of the way, of both handling and your field of view and with the right, low mounted dot, your iron sights can be co-witnessed. Not that it really matters, as most good mounts pop right off.

With this set up, it is very natural to shoulder and shoot. Your cheek weld is basically the same as your iron sights. Snap shots are a breeze.

AK103K w/Aimpont ML2 on a Larue lever mount.

SAR1 w/Tasco Pro Point on low weaver rings.

 

[clange]

Here's a reply from Tantal (he's great):



I'm leaning toward a Kobra, based on the fact that I won't be able to afford a decent optic to put on the Ultimak if I go that route, and the Wal-Mart red dots seem to be of questionable durability (thanks for the heads-up, Dave). At least the Kobras are mil-spec, even if they are somewhat more bulky.

Of the two Kobras, I think I like the EKP-8-02 (Gen II) better, mainly because of the less obstructed field of view. I have a Radio Shack a couple blocks from my house, so getting batteries for it won't be a problem.

Thanks for all the feedback!

Interesting. I never knew there was a different profile between the 8-02 and 03M. The lenses look like they're in the same location, but the 8-02 doesnt have the big cover over the rear dial, and the dial is set lower. So you arent looking over a dial like on the 03M. It should let your line of sight be a little lower, but practical FOV would be the same I think, infinite.

 

[TIMC]

Ultimak and Bushnell holosight is how I went on my SAR1. I did have to add a cheek pad on the stock to get a good cheek weld on the stock but now it is perfect. Expensive, yes but worth it. They are parallax free.

I would say buy the Ultimak and a cheap red dot then buy the holosight when you can affor it. The Ultimak is the most stable sight platform I have seen for an AK.

 

[Coronach]

Optics mounted on the side-mount rail are good, too, as far as stability is concerned. Mounting and dismounting may or may not rezero (I've heard both), but I can remove the dustcover and bolt without dismounting the optic. My main concerns are height or offset (some sit lower-left). Both seem to require cheek pieces.

The low-left style even allows use of the iron sights with the optic in place.

Mike

 

[clange]

Yeah, the PK-AS sits off to the left and allows the use of the iron sights. It doesnt look like it, but the line of sight is actually a bit lower than the kobra. Its got a black dot and ring that works without batteries, and a red dot in the middle. It uses coin type batteries. Its more expensive than a kobra, and even though its 1x (or close to it) it has some eye relief like a scope. I personally have never seen one, so I dont know what this effect is really like.

Might be another optic to think about.

http://freedomoptics.com/Comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=114

 

[Fingolfin]

My preference would be the AA model Kobra, just from a budget standpoint. The Ultimak plus equivalent sight plus a quick detach mount would be a lot more than the Kobra which of course has the integrated quick detach mount. Also I like the reticle options on the Kobra, and it's more "authentic" as AK style goes.

The ultimak offers you a lot more options though, and it's possible to cowitness although very low. Either way would be great setups IMO.