KTOrdinance Civil Judgement is in.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Zedicus, Nov 18, 2007.

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  1. Zedicus

    Zedicus Member

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    Quote of an e-mail Richard Celata Sent out.

     
  2. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

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    Bump. This is rediculous.
     
  3. wideym

    wideym Member

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    Who is Richard Celata and what is this all about?
     
  4. Dead

    Dead Member

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    C: If a criminal prosecution in which this property will be necessary as evidence is not forthcoming the government is to return the property to Plaintiff or notify the Plaintiff as to why the property is not to be returned. :what:
     
  5. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

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    Exactly. It is government theft.
     
  6. BlazingAngel01

    BlazingAngel01 Member

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    if there was no criminal act they must return them, there has to be more to this then what they are telling you
     
  7. Aguila Blanca

    Aguila Blanca Member

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    I hope Rich has a good lawyer, because it doesn't appear that he understands what's happening.

    His e-mail says the government dropped the case. That isn't what the court's order says. This was a civil case in which Rich was the plaintiff. The government was the defendant -- they couldn't have dropped the case, because the case was Rich's case. Rich asked for a summary judgment, which was DENIED. The Government asked for a summary judgment, which they got.
     
  8. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Member

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    The way I read it, the government took KT's firearms pursuant to a criminal investigation. KT filed a suit to have the firearms returned and the court said no because they are part of an ongoing criminal investigation and ordered the government to either return the firearms at the end of the investigation or explain why they didn't.

    I tend to agree with Aguila Blanca. I don't think the original author understands that the criminal case has certainly not been dropped yet.
     
  9. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

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    who

    KT sells 80% receivers
    http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/index.php

    So you can make your own gun,in your garage machine shop.

    they are going through a ton of legal hassle for believing in the 2nd Amendment.

    I wish I had bought some of their stuff
     
  10. divemedic

    divemedic Member

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    I am glad I didn't, or ATF would be visiting me soon as well.
     
  11. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    The problem stems, as I understand from various sources, that they did a little more than that. They sold 80% receivers but allowed customers to do the other 20 percent at KTs site using KTs machine tools.

    One person described the process as KT setting up a CNC machine to do the other 20 percent and the customer pushing the "start" button.
     
  12. Dallas239

    Dallas239 Member

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    The fed.gov took his stuff and started civil forfeiture proceedings. An in rem action to get the stuff. Then they apparantly dropped that action but kept the stuff. So Celata sued to get his stuff back. That's this action, which he just lost. Guessing from the order, the gov'ts summary judgement motion claimed they were evidence in an as-yet unfiled criminal proceeding. The gov't won, but the judge gave them the choice to either file the criminal charges or give Celata his stuff back.

    This is just my understanding based on reading this order and the complaint in the civil forfeiture action, so I may be off.
     
  13. Aguila Blanca

    Aguila Blanca Member

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    Well, just so nobody misunderstands, I am completely in Rich's favor. Perhaps a more complete update would have been less confusing, but the information in the e-mail by itself just didn't seem to make sense.
     
  14. redneckrepairs

    redneckrepairs Member

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    Just to be clear here It is my understanding that the .gov seized not firearms , but his entire stock of castings , foregings and even scrap metal along with all his machine tools . and tooling . We will have to wait and see what if any charges come down , I have heard both that he overstepped the bounds of the law on one of his " build party " weekend get togeathers , and that its an atf informant who cooked up a violation that most likely did not occur . I support Rich on this case at this point , but do recognize that similar to Randy Weaver his political views will win him few friends in a court . I strongly suspect that IF a case does come down it will be more about demonisation of his political views than factual evidence presented . Hopefully he has not waived " speedy " so the clock is ticking to make them file or give back the property, but i really have not stayed current enough on the case to know .
     
  15. Zedicus

    Zedicus Member

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    I sent Rich an e-mail asking for more info.

    but from what is available It would seem the BATFE are are attempting to do the following.

    • Kill Grassroots Self-Manufacture of Firearms
    • Prevent Rich from being Financially able to Fight back effectively by confiscating tools and castings etc.
    • doing the same by withholding those items and dragging things out as long as possible.
    • scare and or terrorize him out of business (the raid and the fact that his pregnant wife had a miscarriage after the raid)

    the whole BATFE case is built on a technicality and in a lame attempt to strengthen it the BATFE brought in Canadian LE to make absurd and irrelevant claims.

    it would be like a relative of someone who got shot suing someone with an internet reloading guide for the death of the relative who was shot buy a gang member who stole his ammo from someone who bought it at walmart, and wining due to a "conspiricy" clause in a UN law, all while protesting outside the creator of the reloading guide's home and harassing his family.:banghead:
     
  16. Creeping Incrementalism

    Creeping Incrementalism Member

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    Liberty Dollars on the KT website

    Am I mis-remembering, or did KT used to accept payment in Liberty Dollars? I seem to remember that you'd end up paying something like10-20% more if you used the Liberty Dollar route, because one Liberty Dollar cost like a buck ten of twenty in legal tender.
     
  17. mekender

    mekender Member

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    is there not a limit on how long the government can keep "evidence" without using it in a criminal case? or can they just say "we are conducting an investigation" and keep it forever under that guise?
     
  18. Creeping Incrementalism

    Creeping Incrementalism Member

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    The statute of limitations is the normal limit, since most people waive their right to a speedy trail in order to give their lawyer more time.

    That is what the State of California's Bureau of Firearms is doing with the 219 AR-15 lowers from the Milpitas bust nearly two years ago. It is a BS case and they know they will lose, so out of spite they are holding onto the evidence (everyone's lowers) until the statute of limitations runs out in just over one more year. Then there is a limited amount of time to claim them before the state melts them down.
     
  19. Kharn

    Kharn Member

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    Creeping Incrementalism:
    Correct, he also requested people use a rather odd address, like 'Territory of ______' instead of just listing the state and zip code.

    Kharn
     
  20. Blackfork

    Blackfork Member

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    We certainly are being protected..

    ..by the government from the likes of Richard and his 80% lowers. I feel safer.
     
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