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Kutztown University student beat to death

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by BackwoodsFiero, Sep 8, 2007.

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  1. BackwoodsFiero

    BackwoodsFiero Member

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    http://www.mcall.com/all-kutztowndeath0907-cnap,0,1349830.story?coll=all-news-col

    This makes me sick, why is it these things are becoming so common? I know the question always comes up "Can I draw, can I, can I?!" but in all seriousness, would one be justified drawing on these punks if you were a passerby witnessing this? I find it hard to believe this wouldnt be justified, it would have saved a life.
     
  2. James T Thomas

    James T Thomas Member

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    "What a man thinks in his heart -so he is."

    Who says all the TV and cinema graphic violence has no influence on the misguided youth taking all that corruption in?

    IMF anyone?

    Add alcohol consumption and what do you get?

    We in PA wanted to be just like all the other states around us; no "blue laws;" etc. Now booze is available even in our grocery stores -just like everyone else.

    Years from now it will be enlightening to compare the DUI related deaths to the period before where the Liquor Commission controlled the availability of alcoholic beverage.
     
  3. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    From the articles, "His death was Kutztown's first homicide since 1982 and only the third since 1968, officials said." That doesn't sound too common to me.

    I suppose that depends on Pennsylvania's deadly force laws.


    And here comes hypocrisy of the teetotalers... let's swap out some words and watch the double-standard appear:

    Who says all the TV and cinema graphic violence has no influence on the misguided youth taking all that corruption in?

    Add guns and what do you get?

    We in PA wanted to be just like all the other states around us; no "anti gun laws;" etc. Now guns available even without a permit-just like everyone else.

    Years from now it will be enlightening to compare the gun related deaths to the period before where the state controlled the availability of guns.

    Why is that when someone commits a crime involving a gun, the problem is the criminal and not the easy access to guns, but if someone commits a crime involving alcohol, it's always the accessibility to the booze.

    Guns don't make people into violent criminals, do they? What would make you think that a bottle of beer there would force someone to become a drunk?

    Just about every argument in favor of controlling alcohol is used to promote gun control.

    But, the only purpose of alcohol is to get drunk and avoid life's problems!
    The only purpose of guns is to kill.

    The perceived benefits of drinking are far outweighed by the risks of alcohol abuse.
    The chance of using a gun in self defense are far outweighed by the danger of hurting a loved one.

    If someone is drinking in a bad situation, it could turn violent!
    If someone has a gun in a bad situation, it could turn violent!

    Easy accessibility to alcohol leads to abuse!
    Easy accessibility to guns leads to violence!

    We shouldn't sell alcohol at grocery stores because it makes it too easy for drunks to get to it! Only state liquor agencies should sell it, that way it is properly controlled!
    We shouldn't let sporting goods stores sell guns because it is too easy for bad guys to get them! Only state armories should sell them, that way they are properly controlled.

    I just don't understand why so many gun folks are so quick to blame the criminal for gun-related crimes and so quick to blame the alcohol for alcohol-related crimes.

    You either believe in personal responsibility or you don't.

    Sadly, the only difference between many of those who call themselves liberals and many of those who call themselves conservatives is which things they want to see controlled.

    My apologies for turning this slightly political. The parallels between those who blame guns for societies woes and those who blame alcohol are too strikingly similar to ignore.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2007
  4. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    I'm saddened for the family and the sensless loss of a human life. I can't quote statistics or give you a reference, but my impression is that the locals have been beating on college students for years. I think it is part jealousy and mostly downright stupidity. This one got a bit carried away. I'm glad the bond was set at an amount that made it impossible for any of these kids to get out on prior to the trial. Really stupid.... aside from committing the worst sin (yes, religious thing, damn them) that you can commit, these young men have ruined their lives for the rest of their lives. Jail is not a pleasant place and these guys will get to know the pen really well. Welcome to their new world.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2007
  5. Danus ex

    Danus ex Member

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    Because the internet and other forms of mass media expose one event to millions of people, giving the illusion of commonness.
     
  6. BackwoodsFiero

    BackwoodsFiero Member

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    Actually, this was in my local paper, and it's the second beaten-to-death article in 2 months in my local paper.
     
  7. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Yes, you would. Defense of another person who is in immanent danger of death or gervious bodily harm would be justifiable.

    I would not, however, say any more than necessary at the scene. "They were beating him to death. I ran up and tried to stop them. I'm too upset to say anything more. I'll contact my lawyer and give you a full statement later."

    I would also make a point (if necessary) that I drew and fired after they turned on me.
     
  8. Dorryn

    Dorryn Member

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    The blame for all crimes, violence, hatred, and societal woes lies at the feet of human nature. No more, no less. Alcohol, guns, the economy, all are excuses used by people to avoid real responsibility or real thought.

    People will blame anything to avoid blaming free will and human selfishness, pride, and greed.
     
  9. TargetTerror

    TargetTerror Member

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    +1 Jorg

    I couldn't have said it better myself.
     
  10. buck00

    buck00 Member

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    The suspects were non-student punks from Allentown, not Kutztown. They weren't locals- they basically came into the college town looking to power drink and stir up some trouble. Normally things are pretty quiet up in Kutztown.

    Very sad situation.
     
  11. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    Yeah, I know the young men were from Allentown. I attended a college in PA much like Kutztown. Most are pretty quiet places. Good places!

    Jorg, good comments on drawing parallels between alcohol and guns. I do believe in personal responsibility. What happens when people show little to no personal responsibility? It is a problem that has no answer. My wife has been dealing with this issue for a while with her family. Alcoholic...gunaholic?
     
  12. The Deer Hunter

    The Deer Hunter Member

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    Didn't the man blame that "Rock and Roll" stuff for misguided youth back a couple generations ago?

    But that really makes me sick. I hope all of the men who killed the kid get life.
     
  13. Vanderbilt

    Vanderbilt Member

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    +2 Jorg - you made some great points.

    I find this story especially saddening, as I grew up in the Allentown area. It has truly gone downhill over the past several years.
     
  14. Crunker1337

    Crunker1337 Member

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    If you were an armed passerby and prevented by PA's deadly force law to open fire or even draw you could have done this:

    -call the police first and tell them to bring an ambulance
    -physically put yourself in between the attackers and the victim (you'd have to take a few hits I know, but I'd say it's worth the life of another)
    -if they don't start to hit you the victim has a chance to get away (not likely, they'll probably be all over you)
    -when they do start to hit you then it would be reasonable to use deadly force to defend yourself.
     
  15. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    Just being near this scene is reason to question your own personal safety.

    I don't think you have to wait quite that long to draw your weapon and more than likely all the violence would have stopped at that point.
     
  16. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    All they do is control how much you spend and when you can buy it. I got quite a few fifths and a case of beer that no one but me has control over any longer.
     
  17. CTPistol

    CTPistol Member

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    get between a couple of strangers and take a few hits while the police are on their way???

    :uhoh:

    what part about beaten to death dont some people understand?
     
  18. Leanwolf

    Leanwolf Member

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    CRUNKER 1337 - " ... -when they do start to hit you then it would be reasonable to use deadly force to defend yourself."

    Crunker, in a real fight, when several people start beating the living bejesus out of you, the very, very long odds are you will not be able to "pull your piece."

    L.W.
     
  19. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    Events like that make it difficult to deny the presence of evil in this world. I don't think that University President F. Javier Cevallos understands that calling "Quinn's death 'a senseless isolated random act of violence'" is a kind of denial that increases the possibility of such incidents. It encourages people to believe that bad things won't happen to them and that victims are simply the unfortunate losers in life's lottery.
     
  20. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    He's an academic. He doesn't live on this planet.
     
  21. another okie

    another okie Member

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    I don't think we really know whether such events are more common now. Certainly we hear about them more. It's never been safe in urban areas to wander around at 2:27 a.m., whether you're talking about ancient Rome or Kutztown today.
     
  22. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

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    I'm relatively youth. I've had plenty of exposure to violence, in its traditionally hated form, literature, and its more modern hated forms like movies, television, and video games. I'm also known to drink. Why am I not out beating people to death? Why blame entertainment or alcohol? Why are they not personally responsible? Why not question what sort of upbringing they had? Your arguments sound like those of an anti-gun person.
     
  23. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    IMNSHO....the only punative measure that has any affect on people who exhibit this kind of behaviour is a very severe whipping or execution.
     
  24. wheelgunslinger

    wheelgunslinger Member

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    Crunker elite wrote:
    Leanwolf responded:
    Can you imagine the field day that a DA would have with you for positioning yourself into a situation where you could use deadly force.

    Can you imagine how insane you would have to be to get that close to 2 or 3 sociopaths who are, in that moment, doing what sociopaths sit around and daydream about?

    I'm not sure what the "right" answer is here, but it certainly is not getting within striking distance of these nutjobs and letting them hit you. It's not a video game. One shot on the chin and you could be out like a light, and then they have a weapon. Your weapon. And, now they have 2 people to savage and or shoot at their discretion and the ability to harm even more people.

    I'd say that the right questions are being asked here, though. And, that's a good thing.
    My strategy is WWBD. What would Brownie Do? ;)
     
  25. TrybalRage

    TrybalRage Member

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    +1 Soybomb.

    I'm in my mid-20's, I like to have a few drinks, I carry a firearm, I love violent movies, books, and the Grand Theft Auto series is probably the best video game franchise ever made.

    I guess I'm just a ticking bomb.
     
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