Ladder Method Experts Needed

[snuffy]

Ok, for all of you non-believers, If you have not tried this method, YOU HAVE NO OPINION. Get it?Yes sir!

I use it, I like it, and it has worked well for me. Ok, it is not for you. Well then, it is not your thing, go harrass someone about the method you DO know something about.

Lastly, this is not the way to get your perfect load. It is a good, working, shortcut intended to save you time, components, and barrel life. It shows you the ranges to spend your time investigating, instead of investigating the entire spectrum of possible charge weights.

At this point, the method has worked beautifully for me.

I hate being ignorant about anything. So help educate me, provide a link to an explanation, or procedures, on the ladder system.

Mal, it's real difficult to "read" moods or implications on a thread like this.

Try this, it is what I use. http://www.clik.to/optimalchargeweight

Ron

I read this to say, "quit arguing this is the end all to load development". It DID contain the word "optimal".

 

[~z]

Sorry this has become a pissing match. I too am looking for info and the results of others. Here is my experience: the ladder has helped me to narrow down the field. It has helped me to find a powder that works well in the velocity range I desire.
One problem with the "method" is that it may not be good for the inexperienced shooter or for use in an unprooven rifle. (Please realize I'm not calling anyone out or saying my rifle is better than yours). That is to say, if you can not call your shots by the sight picture you have when the trigger breaks, this method may not work well for you. That leaves you wondering about the results. Looking at the target you may say "I prolly pulled that one". To use the method well, you must be able to account for each shot.
The method is not the end all be all, in my opinion, but it is a good place to start.
My reasoning for using it, I do a bit of longer range shooting, my intention is to find a powder that shoots well at a particular velocity, not just find an accurate load. Once I find that "sweet spot" I refine seating depth to zero in on the most accurate load I can find. I have tried running an additional ladder to determine seating depth but was limited by my optics, ie I could not determine which shot went where cause the groups were too small and beyond 300yds my spotting scope could not pick up the holes except under ideal conditions (which we all know dont happen when we want them to).

So the next trip to the range, I shoot groups of 4 at different seating depths. 4 is my magic number as I believe a 3 shot group is enough proof at this stage, but you never know when you may have an oops. I shoot, say to myself, "yea, that felt good", or "I think I pulled that one left and low" whatever, call the shot, then look through the spotting scope for proof.

Once I find the seating depth that seems best, I load up another 10 for the next trip for final proof. It usually takes me between 50 and 60 rounds to develop a load if the initial ladder provided accuracy in the velocity range I was looking for. Heres my results:

 

[BigBlack]

~z, what distance was the big target, and did you use #11-#14 as your final tuning powder range?

 

[~z]

Black, targets were at 300 yds, as it allowed me to track the shots easier (larger group), and yes I used 11-14 for final tuning. I decided on the middle of it and loaded 74.8gn and adjusted the seating depth till I found the results I liked. I was looking for a velocity in the neighborhood of 3000fps. I got 2980ish at the end with a sd of 3. I'm happy. I think it took 50 or 60 shots to find this load.
~z

 

[ranger335v]

"It assumes that the rifle is perfect, the shooter is perfect, velocities represent the true average, and that the holes on target are actually the aim point."

OK, so you already stated that you really don't understand the system.


"Why spend 1.5 hours going to the range, and about 1.5 hours back, just to rapidly shoot ten rounds?"

It never occured to me that chosing a method of load development should include considerations of how far it is to a range, nor that anyone would make a range trip, rapidly fire ten rounds and go home. ?? Might you consider taking more than one weapon and more than ten rounds to the range on any given day?
-----------------------------

Der Verge - "Ok, for all of you non-believers, If you have not tried this method, YOU HAVE NO OPINION. Get it?"

Verge, YOU sure got it!!

 

[~z]

Ranger, have you used the ladder for seating depth too? How did it work for you? I tried it but groups were too small to call shots. What distance?
~z

 

[ranger335v]

"Ranger, have you used the ladder for seating depth too? How did it work for you?"

Yes. It works quite well. I usually start seating about .010" off the lands, all factory rifles around here, and work deeper for best results. Attempts to tweak the charge after finding the seating depth has not done anything for me but it could. So far, it seems that if the charge is good, it's good.


"I tried it but groups were too small to call shots."

That happens when it doesn't make much difference. With a good load, seating usually isn't super critical. I mean if the rifle shows no distinct preference between .010" off the lands to say .050" off the lands, just pick something that lies between what shows improvement and where it starts to fall apart.

For all of my ladder tests, I just make a group of small targets for shooting at 100 yards. I assign ONE cartridge to each numbered target and shoot it, then progress to the next. After reaching my max charge, I take the stack of targets and lay each over the first in turn, marking each successive bullet hole on the first, and numbering each hole until I have them all on the composite target. That system seperates each round for sure AND the composite target shows how each round correlates to the others.

For magnum cases I usually move in .5 gr steps, for small ones it will be as little as .2 gr steps and for 30-06 I go in .3 gr steps. Small steps really help keep things more honest on target.

After finding the best charge range as indicated by three consecutive close shots, I will load two or three more of each of those three to confirm what I suspect works best. If it's good, I pick the best one and then start seating deeper in about .005" steps, then do the same numbered target drill at the range to find the best seating depth.

Usually takes no more than maybe forty and sometimes as little as twenty rounds to find the best charge and seating depth for any given bullet and powder. Obviously, not all combos will be highly accurate and no amount of additional shooting will make them so.

I've never bothered to try it with primer changes, I just continue to use Fed. 210s for everthing!


"What distance?"

Not sure what you mean here. Is that "at what yardage distance?" I do all my load development at 100 yards 'cause that's as far as my little "at home" range can stretch.