Lake St Louis Learns about Castle Doctrine the hard way

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This is not a grand dictate from on High, it is common statutory law generated by leftists and is based on the premise "A thief's right to steal your property is more important than your right to keep it". This sort of law and all those who support it are pro-criminal and anti-society and peaceful life.

Horse hockey. Utter bull.

These types of laws have been a fundamental understanding of "western" style law for centuries. Long before the USA existed a bunch of "leftists" were codifying that, with exceptions for certain practicalities, some THING somebody owns is not worth ending the life of a human being for. Even that of the human being who took it unjustly.

Further, those commie bastiges were putting down laws that recognized that one man doesn't have the right to kill another man out of vengeance of a wrong, and that if punishment is to be meeted out, society itself holds the only authority to observe the facts, decide guilt, and execute sentence.

Those basic tenets are exactly what preserves a peaceful society, so you are precisely, 100%, dead wrong.
 
This ["nothing ever stolen is ever worth killing over"] is not a grand dictate from on High, it is common statutory law generated by leftists and is based on the premise "A thief's right to steal your property is more important than your right to keep it". This sort of law and all those who support it are pro-criminal and anti-society and peaceful life.
No! That comment demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the law.

What is is based on is (1) the premise that a citizen does not have the right to deprive another of his life unless it is immediately necessary for that citizen to do so to exercise his natural right of preservation (that's what the concept of lawful elf defense has been based on throughout the history of our civilization) and (2) all accused persons have a basic right to due process.

No thief has the "right" to "steal" anyone's property.

These principles predate the advent of so called "leftist" philosophy by centuries.
 
I'll have to give that some thought but presently many of us could come upon thieves headed down our driveway and would break the law if we did anymore than take their license plate number and call 911.
Theft is a personal violation and it's not always so cut and dried as simply calling the insurance company. There are plenty of irreplaceable heirlooms and other possessions that no insurance can replace.
Does that equal someones life? I can't say but there is some truth in questioning a thief if his life is worth the items he is stealing rather than the other way around.

How much would you pay for an 09 Wolkswagon with bulletholes in the windows and a pool of congealed human blood in the front seat?

Your legal bills for shooting someone, even a good shoot, will likely far exceed the value of the property taken, or of the insurance deductible. Or just the cleaning bill to remove the bad guys blood from your carpet.

Does being able to do simple math make me less of a man?
 
There is an old saying, "Justice delayed is justice denied."

There's also an old saying, "Old enough to go to the store, old enough to get bread (bred)." Just because there's an old saying about it doesn't mean it's a wise (or even legal) saying. Pedophelia isn't OK just because some dope made up a saying about it.
 
I was trying to explain justifiable deadly force to a non-gun owner who really had trouble getting it, and eventually came up with: "Shoot to save life, not to save stuff"...it was the simplest way to position it that this particular person could understand.

Looking back, I realized it's not that awful of a description of when to use deadly force....


Larry
 
In my state, one may lawfully use non-deadly physical force to prevent theft, if there is reason to believe that it is necessary.

The problem with that IMO is how to know in advance whether the physical force will definitely be non-deadly. Aside from the possibility of getting carried away while using fists and feet, BG may have some medical condition that results in the application of what would be non-lethal force to someone else being lethal to him.
 
Even if legal, I would not shoot to merely protect property.
I wonder how many of those thumping their chest talking about how they should be able to kill anyone who dares try and steal from them, have ever actually had to take a human life.

Thankfully, I have not and pray I never do. I would imagine that killing someone is a lifelong burden on a man, whether or not justified in the eyes of the law.
 
Even if legal, I would not shoot to merely protect property.
I wonder how many of those thumping their chest talking about how they should be able to kill anyone who dares try and steal from them, have ever actually had to take a human life.

Thankfully, I have not and pray I never do. I would imagine that killing someone is a lifelong burden on a man, whether or not justified in the eyes of the law.

Well said. Too many folks get caught up in 'Can I shoot?' rather than, 'Do I absolutely, positively have NO other choice but to shoot?'


Larry
 
I repeat:
He was pointing something at me. It looked like a GUN, MISSLE, GRENADE, (take your pick) and I was fearful for my life! Bang. The bad guy is dead.
 
The guy in this story is facing 1st degree murder charges.

http://kingfish1935.blogspot.com/2017/01/was-it-murder-we-report-you-decide.html

"Security camera video at Performance Oil on McDowell Road shows a struggle taking place between Wayne Parish and Charles McDonald before McDonald was shot to death on July 21, 2016. A Hinds County grand jury indicted Mr. Parish for first degree murder in the death of 17 year-old McDonald on October 28. A confrontation took place between the two men at the business when McDonald tried to steal a car"....(continued at the link)...

 
He was pointing something at me. It looked like a GUN, MISSLE, GRENADE, (take your pick) and I was fearful for my life!
And as long as that is exactly true, that's a perfectly appropriate thing to say, when giving your statement.

Hopefully the available evidence supports that assertion and there is nothing that causes a prosecutor, and/or a jury, to discredit your testimony.

The bad guy is dead.
Maybe, maybe not. That is not up to us, the defender, to decide. The threat is stopped. More we cannot do.
 
He was pointing something at me. It looked like a GUN, MISSLE, GRENADE, (take your pick) and I was fearful for my life! Bang. The bad guy is dead.
Do you really think that your word alone will suffice as evidence in a defense off justification?

Will the forensic evidence show the had a "something" that a reasonable person might, even in stressful circumstances, mistake for a weapon?

Might there be eyewitnesses whose testimony contradicts yours?

And what about the person at whom you shot? Dances are extremely high that he will survive a handgun wound an live to testify against you.

And should you ever shoot anyone after posting this, this post, which is public, permanent, and discoverable, will surely be used against you as evidence of state of mind.

Be careful out there.
 
I'd like to drag this back to something Jeff brought up in his first post:

WHY did this man do what he did?

If I were to interview this man candidly, I'd ask him that question repeatedly, through several layers of his answers, until I reached whatever "root cause(s)" could be found.

I was once told, by a very wise Master Chief, that if you ask "Why" 7 times, you're very likely to approached the REAL reason someone did something.

"Why did you shoot this man?"

"Because he was stealing my car."

"Why did you think you had to shoot this man for stealing your car?"

"Because I thought..."

"Why did you think...?"



For every person who shoots another, there are a plethora of reasons they could give. BUT...I submit that the fact that they are all human beings means that there are likely some common human behavioral traits that could be traced down.

Why do people do stupid things? (Or anything, really.) It's really a combination of emotional, intellectual, and training traits when you think about it.

Sometimes we do stupid things that we KNEW better than to because we allowed our emotions to overrule our intellect and training.

Sometimes we do stupid things because our intellect on the matter was somewhat wanting.

Sometimes we do stupid things because our training was deficient.

Most often, it's a combination of these things, and the exact specifics may be unique to each individual...because every individual is driven by human behavioral traits and a lifetime of character development.


I strongly suspect that this guy was pretty much an "average" guy. Basically a good guy whose primary interest in life involved the day-to-day routine centered around working and supporting his life and family. If it wasn't directly related to his income, taking care of home and family, supporting whatever recreational activities, he probably had little, if any, interest in pursuing actual, real knowledge on anything from authoratative sources.

In other words, he was lazy about learning substantial information if it didn't affect his immediate concerns. With respect to firearms, he likely had no interest outside the basics. Maybe he likes guns and shooting. Maybe he likes action movies with guns. Maybe gun magazines are exciting, because they feature lots of "exotic" or "beautiful" guns. The idea of being able to protect his family may have been attractive.

BUT...perhaps actually looking up and studying the actual laws on the legal use of deadly force was "boring", or maybe fell under the "everybody knows" category. Maybe he gleened his beliefs from hearsay or gun magazines. Maybe "that's the way dad believed".

WHATEVER it was, something resulted in either his lack of knowledge or understanding of the laws, or caused his emotions to overrule his knowledge/training, or his training was deficient.


If you really, HONESTLY, want to know the reason (s), you MUST conduct an indepth interview designed to work down all these layers to the actual root cause.

Here's a hint: outside an extremely narrow group of people with serious psychological issues, the actual root cause will NOT be something simple like "media disinformation on Castle Doctrine".


A few months ago, when I posted about an automobile accident I was in, hso asked me a very penetrating question: "So what were you thinking about at the time that you missed seeing the guy?"

The OBVIOUS and SIMPLE reason I hit the other vehicle was because I didn't see him. But that wasn't the root cause. Questions like this are designed to lead you to the key factors which actually lead up to the incident.
 
This whole "story" can also be likened to the "I was cleaning my gun" excuse which I read in the paper every two weeks or so. It seems to work for the media. Media people also use the term "MISFIRE" to mean someone was shot and wasn't supposed to. So much for the media. The only time my comments are important is when I am on the jury. All else is here say.
 
I've often wondered how much the misinformation that a hysterical media puts out about Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws contributes to incidents like this. There is no excuse for anyone who contemplates using deadly force to defend himself not knowing the law, but I think the media is also irresponsible in how they report on these issues.

By all accounts Mr. Flagg was a decent citizen prior to this incident. It appears he thought he made the legal decision.

Regardless of the media hype, Mr. Flagg had an obligation to educate himself on the self defense laws of his state. It is significant that he did not take advantage of that opportunity.

i had a good friend who was a fine Dad, husband and family provider. Then he drove drunk one time and killed a 12 year old girl. That ended it all.
 
You can be completely and totally right, right up until you're wrong.


There is no sense of 'momentum' in the law; you can change directions in an instant.

Larry
 
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