Larry Vickers; Observations of a Combat Marksmanship Trainer

[Jeff White]

http://blueforcegear.tailorednews.c...ations-from-a-Combat-Marksmanship-Trainer.htm

Short and concise. I agree with everything but this one point referring to closing the dust cover on an AR/M16 pattern weapon:

Sacred Cows of Training
Two of these come to mind: students who do tactical reloads nonstop, and those who constantly close the ejection port cover on their carbine. These two techniques are valid at the right time and place, but many of the students I see who are proficient at these sacred cows actually suck as shooters. Here's a tip from your Uncle Larry: work on being able to hit your target first, and then worry about secondary tasks like closing your dust cover. You may find out that in the real world the first makes the second largely unnecessary.

I was taught from day one in BRM way back in 1974 to close the dust cover. I don't see how learning something that should be part of the basic manual of arms for a weapon detracts from marksmanship training. I haven't seen an Army BRM POI in decades so I don't know if they still teach it. But it was an important, basic weapon handling task to my drill sergeants back then. I don't think it contributed to anyone being recycled for failing to qualify.

I do agree that a person has to have a mastery of basic marksmanship before you add in complex weapons handling tasks like tactical reloads. I just don't see closing the dust cover as complicated weapons handling that detracts from learning more important skills. We teach basic manipulation skills before we start into marksmanship so that students can safely handle their weapons, closing the dust cover is as basic as it gets.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

interesting that he calls out two specific items.

I sometimes struggle with the 'tactical' crowd for similar reasons. I focus first on safety, shooting ability, basic reloads, then move to ideal tactics and manipulation. Many do not get to the tactical reload level, but they sure as heck can shoot and are safe with their gun.

I know a guy who won't do competitions because he is concerned that he won't be able to get "tactical enough" or that he will learn bad habits.
Problem is, he can't shoot.

I encourage people to go learn how to run their guns then get training, then use the training techniques at competition. Its the best practice you can get for an entry fee and will keep your skills up.

For me its like trying to start your truck in 4th gear off the line. Start in 1st, then when the truck is ready for it, shift into the next gear, repeat.

 

[strambo]

I think he just means those 2 go together in his observation. I'm career infantry and don't think about closing the dust cover at all. I do it absent minded and administratively. I don't ever do it while shooting on the range, between strings of fire or at a carbine course ( at least I can't remember, maybe I do it subconsciously out of habit when a course of fire is completely over, like I'm going back to get more ammo).

Totally agree about tac reloads, useful to know, but not high priority or needed to be practiced a lot.

 

[tarosean]

Problem is, he can't shoot.

and thats the reason you only see em show up once.

Shooting fast and accurate is arguably most important in any scenario.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Who is Larry Vickers??

 

[BLB68]

Here's an article about him. Kind of gives an idea of who he is.

 

[HOOfan_1]

I understand it may be a force of habit type thing, but it has always amused me to watch someone chamber a round, close the dust cover and immediately start shooting.

Hickok45 explains why he only loads 5 rounds in single action revolvers, even ones with transfer bars, and even when he isn't going to holster the gun and will shoot it right away. It still strikes me as odd.

Either way, I think Larry is probably just saying some people are more interested in looking the look, than walking the walk.

 

[ATLDave]

My personal favorite is the guys at ranges who look over either shoulder before holstering. Uh, yeah, you're at a shooting range. You're going to see other guys with guns. And then you're going to holster anyway. It's just ridiculous.

 

[guyfromohio]

^^ ATLDave........ Agree.... I took some training where that move is embedded into our actions. It didn't stick. Is it a good idea in a real situation? Yes it is. Must you practice to make it stick in a real situation? Yes, you do. But do you remember why you're doing it?

 

[Jeff White]

I'm career infantry and don't think about closing the dust cover at all. I do it absent minded and administratively.

Same here. I don't think about closing it, I just do it. Just like I was taught in basic training 42 years ago. That's why I'm surprised it was mentioned as detracting from other training. I had to consciously train myself to stop hitting the forward assist after chambering a round, another thing the Army taught. I just don't see where he's coming from about closing the dust cover.

 

[ATLDave]

Maybe he's not saying that closing the dust cover is affirmatively bad, just that it's kind of silly to make that the first or second thing to get really proficient at. Certainly these days there are lots of people who shoot guns who have spent a bunch of energy and money and time on various "operator" moves and gear... but who can't shoot accurately or quickly.

The guy who shows up with all that stuff and all those moves but then cannot shoot decently is like the guy who shows up at a car race with tons of decals on his car and then gets lapped in the first 3 minutes.

Seems like Vickers puts being super diligent about dust covers and tac reloads in the same category. Not bad, just not the first thing to get really good at!

 

[Old Dog]

My personal favorite is the guys at ranges who look over either shoulder before holstering

Well, they're not doing it to impress you. If you don't get in the habit of doing "the scan" every time you go to the holster, maybe you'll not do it the one time you're going back to the holster after eliminating one threat, but not noticing the other ...

The over-the-shoulders threat scan is still taught by a lot of trainers (including in law enforcement). Maybe it's ridiculous to you, and you're entitled to laugh at the actions of others, but if they're actively practicing what they've trained, good for them.

As for Vickers opinion of tactical reloads during training ... sigh. A lot of agencies have simplified things down to every reload being an emergency reload (either due to malfunction or shooting to slide-lock). The more stuff you give people to think about in training, the more stuff they can mess up.

And I was trying to remember the last time (while in the military) I saw someone constantly closing the dust-cover in his M-16/M-4 ... hmm.

 

[ATLDave]

Well, they're not doing it to impress you. If you don't get in the habit of doing "the scan" every time you go to the holster, maybe you'll not do it the one time you're going back to the holster after eliminating one threat, but not noticing the other ...

The over-the-shoulders threat scan is still taught by a lot of trainers (including in law enforcement). Maybe it's ridiculous to you, and you're entitled to laugh at the actions of others, but if they're actively practicing what they've trained, good for them.

As far as I can tell, they're "training" to see other unknown people with guns and then reholster anyway. It's preposterous.

Maybe it's ridiculous to you, and you're entitled to laugh at the actions of others,

Sweet! I love this country!

 

[Girodin]

I just don't see where he's coming from about closing the dust cover.

I am not Mr. Vickers, nor do I have 1/1,000,000 of the experience he has in shooting or training. I'm guessing he may be trying to get at two points. One is what Pat McNamara (another former delta guy and professional trainer that I am sure that people who have very little experience will be happy to be naively dismissive of) refers to as range theatrics. There is ingraining a behavior through repetition and then there is range theatrics. He discusses it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzwVXA9J620 This discusses directly the scan and assess discussion above.

I have not trained with Mr. Vickers although I am hoping to attend one of his classes this spring. I have had occasion to train with Hackathorn a mentor of Mr. Vickers. I know that he focuses on fundamentals. I believe the both talk about striving to be able to do the basics at a super bowl level. I don't think he is saying there is anything per se wrong with closing the dust cover or doing a tac reload. I interpret his comments to be in part addressing the hierarchy of skill sets and where people should be really focusing. Again I'm not Mr. Vickers and maybe I am missing is point entirely.

Who is Larry Vickers?

Mr. Vickers Bio from his company's website:

Larry Vickers of Vickers Tactical is a retired US Army 1st SFOD- Delta combat veteran with years of experience in the firearms industry as a combat marksmanship instructor and industry consultant. In recent years he has hosted tactical firearms related TV shows, the latest being TacTV of which Bravo Company is a presenting sponsor. Larry Vickers special operations background is one of the most unique in the industry today; he has been directly or indirectly involved in the some of the most significant special operations missions of the last quarter century. During Operation Just Cause he participated in Operation Acid Gambit – the rescue of Kurt Muse from Modelo Prison in Panama City, Panama. As a tactics and marksmanship instructor on active duty he helped train special operations personnel that later captured Saddam Hussein and eliminated his sons Uday and Qusay Hussein. In addition, he was directly involved in the design and development of the HK416 for Tier One SOF use, which was used by Naval Special Warfare personnel to kill Osama Bin Laden. Larry Vickers has developed various small arms accessories, with the most notable being his signature sling manufactured by Blue Force Gear and Glock accessories made by Tangodown. In addition he has maintained strong relationships with premium companies within the tactical firearms industry such as Blue Force Gear, BCM, Aimpoint, Black Hills Ammunition, Wilson Combat, Mile High Shooting, Red State Tactical, and Schmidt & Bender.

Larry Vickers travels the country conducting combat marksmanship classes for law abiding civilians, law enforcement and military, and has partnered with Alias Training to coordinate classes to best meet the needs of the students attending the class.

People on here often want to be extremely dismissive of what guys like Vickers have to say. While I do not believe any of these guys are infallible, I think they have gained a lot of wisdom in the decades of fighting, training, and teaching they have under their belts. This is true of their opinions concerning weapons, tactics, techniques etc. A quick example. I have an opinion about handgun X. It is based on shooting maybe 5k rounds through that type of gun and owning 2 of them. I am friends with one LEO armorer that I have discussed this one agencies experiences with. I have been through two training classes with it. Someone like Mr. Vickers likely sees hundreds of students fire 10s of thousands of rounds through the same weapon in a year. He likely has seen how that weapon has performed in dozens and dozens of classes of mil/leo/and civilian shooters. He has contacts with many military/LEO users that have their own broad base of experiences. So while I have my own experience and opinion I think it is folly to dismiss out of hand someone with significantly more meaningful experience. And at a minimum I would want to try and understood why they hold the opinion they did.

 

[Jeff White]

I spent 20 years as an Infantryman. I did every job an 11B could do from rifleman to first sergeant.

I was taught to close the dust cover as part of the loading procedure and to close it again after I was finished shooting.

I enforced that practice when I became an NCO. In fact one of the little signs I use to judge the training level of the individual soldiers in a unit is if their dust covers are closed while they aren't shooting. Those little things can tell you a lot about the training and NCO effectiveness of a unit. To me seeing a squad or platoon on patrol, especially in dusty environments, with their dust covers open tells me the unit doesn't pay the proper attention to their small arms.

I've taken carbine courses from Jim Crews, Pat Rogers and several LE instructors and I'm not aware of anyone who pushes closing the dust cover after every round or detracts from other training with undue attention to a student having an open dust cover.

I think a big part of the problem is that few people attending commercial training courses take them as part of a total training program where they progress through the crawl, walk and run phases. The basic carbine class offered these days assumes that the student is already proficient in the basic marksmanship fundamentals and doesn't spend a lot of time on sight alignment, trigger control, breathing and the other fundamentals and moves right in to manipulation tasks and other "high speed/low drag" tasks.

There are probably a lot of people who attend these classes who have never fired at a longer range then 100 yards.

I guess he's saying that he sees a lot of students who graduated from other carbon classes who are acceptable at the manipulation skills but can't shoot tight groups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tarosean]

This is true of their opinions concerning weapons, tactics, techniques etc. A quick example. I have an opinion about handgun X. It is based on shooting maybe 5k rounds through that type of gun and owning 2 of them. I am friends with one LEO armorer that I have discussed this one agencies experiences with. I have been through two training classes with it. Someone like Mr. Vickers likely sees hundreds of students fire 10s of thousands of rounds through the same weapon in a year. He likely has seen how that weapon has performed in dozens and dozens of classes of mil/leo/and civilian shooters.

Yet, he and others like him, change their recommendations based on who is signing their paycheck then and now. I do have utmost respect for the man and his accomplishments, but its the nature of the beast when a person makes his/her living in firearms (and other fields)...

 

[Girodin]

Yet, he and others like him, change their recommendations based on who is signing their paycheck then and now. I do have utmost respect for the man and his accomplishments, but its the nature of the beast when a person makes his/her living in firearms (and other fields)...

Have you experienced that? Please cite an example of him saying something was a good choice in gear and then turning around and saying it wasn't later? Even when he and his show were being sponsored by DD my experience was that he was stating there were a couple of brands of ARs that he believed worked well. He is clearly affiliated with BCM now but I have not seen some radical departure in his general opinions about that. Have you? The guy can sell 1911s he makes for thousands of dollars and yet openly tells people that most aren't best served by such a gun. He was involved in the development of the HK 45 and yet has been open about what he thinks the pros and cons are. He sells stuff for the G43 but was pretty blunt in his comparison of it and the shield. I had someone who tell me his signature series of pistol was a lot of money to spend on a gun and more or less say although it was a really nice gun it probably wasn't worth it. Obviously people have affiliations with businesses. Not everyone is a total schill though.

My experience is he and Hackathorn are pretty blunt in telling you what they think about things. More importantly I can't think of a single instance of them endorsing or pushing something that wasn't good high quality gear well suited to the task it was intended for. Can you?

I used gear as an example, and I think it stands, but you could apply the same underlying logic to techniques, etc.

 

[herrwalther]

Close the dust cover or don't. Pull the trigger and it is going to pop open again anyway. Reaching up with your trigger finger to close it (right handed) is not going to detract from learning to shoot. When I was in charge of soldiers, I didn't care 99% of the time if it was open or close. You were going to be the one cleaning it at the end of the day anyway. If you left it open and got dirty, lesson learned.

The 1% of time I did care was when I was being a range safety. It stays open so I can make sure a weapon is empty when it needs to be.

 

[Old Dog]

ATLDave said

As far as I can tell, they're "training" to see other unknown people with guns and then reholster anyway. It's preposterous.

Apparently, you do not understand the concept.

 

[444]

I understand his point. And it's a valid point.

But, these specific things are just something he obsesses on. His pet peeve.

FWIW: I am one of those guys who closes the dust cover automatically without even thinking about it. I even do it after loading at a range when I am going to fire immediately. I have even thought to myself that it was pointless but the next mag, I do it again without thinking. "Weapon on safe, dust cover closed"

 

[bainter1212]

Thank the Lord somebody who matters finally brought up the flaws with muzzle brakes.

They aren't just annoying at the range. If you ever have to fight, like as not you will be doing it with comrades who most likely aren't wearing hearing protection.
I am sure combat is a temporarily deafening experience.....why would you make it a permanently deafening one?

 

[agtman]

I do agree that a person has to have a mastery of basic marksmanship before you add in complex weapons handling tasks like tactical reloads. I just don't see closing the dust cover as complicated weapons handling that detracts from learning more important skills. We teach basic manipulation skills before we start into marksmanship so that students can safely handle their weapons, closing the dust cover is as basic as it gets.

Well said post.

I agree regarding the dust cover, as it was a basic weapons-manipulation skill I was taught, along with always engaging the safety when not actually firing, always keeping your finger straight and off the trigger, etc. As you said, learning basic weapons manipulation skills precedes, or at least coincides with, acquiring basic marksmanship skills.

Vickers has a point about the tac reload issue. I see a lot of younger guys in Tac Carbine courses who are only so-so in the accuracy department but who seem to spend a lot of time trying to emulate Travis Haley's patented sideways-flip reload technique because "it looks so cool," rather than honing their marksmanship capability beyond 100yds.

 

[Sapper771]

I think "Uncle Larry" is talking about the people who are focusing more on the secondary and tertiary skills instead of the primary skills. We have all seen them. The guys that show up with all this ninja gear doing back to back mag dumps and fast reloads.....but they arent hitting $#it.

I have been around quite a few of these types and It can be somewhat funny at times. I have heard them say that a paper plate sized group is acceptable from their carbine at 25 yards. Zeroing at X distance because thats all they plan to use it at. Spend all their money on accessories and gadgets and then have no money for ammo. Or, show up to an all day shoot then blaze through their five loaded AR mags in 15 minutes. One of my favorites is when they buy a rifle and cant shoot it til they get a red dot for it, they dont know how to use the irons that are already on the rifle or they just dont know how to zero them. Most of them say they dont need to learn how to use irons because they have a red dot. Some have irons, but had someone else zero them.

They prioritize the less important aspects and ignore the more important ones.