Larry Willis collet die and guage

[Craigman]

Has anyone used the Willis belted magnum collet resizing die? I was hoping to get max life from my .338 win mag brass and thought this looked like a good tool. Does anyone else make something similar?
Also does anyone have experience with the digital headspace guage as well?
http://www.larrywillis.com/index.html

 

[paperpuncher49]

I have used it and it works. However, I do not use it if the expended brass will fit in the chamber. You might want to contact Larry, but I do not believe it is primarily intended to extend the life of the brass (which is limited anyway). It is intended to compress any bulges in front of the "magnum" band if those bulges prevent chambering.

 

[Grumulkin]

I have had that die for several years and have never had the need to use it. I think it's the solution to a problem that in most cases doesn't exist.

 

[Horsemany]

I have had that die for several years and have never had the need to use it. I think it's the solution to a problem that in most cases doesn't . exist

+1. Mine's never been used. I bought mine cause I thought I was having bulging the sizer die couldn't take out. Turned out I just needed to bump the shoulder a bit more. I think a chamber would have to be pretty sloppy to need this die.

 

[paperpuncher49]

Quote:
I think a chamber would have to be pretty sloppy to need this die.

True. The only time I have ever used mine was on a few .300 Win Mag cases I was loading for a relative. And I probably didn't need to then as they were only marginally "sticky" when the expended brass was inserted into the chamber. But it was hunting ammo and I wanted to ensure flawless operation.

 

[Innovative]

The Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die is totally different from any other type of sizing die. The top of this die also shows you when this "extra" resizing is needed. For those that own this die, read step number 9 in the instructions.

For those that believe only sloppy chambers need this die, you just don't understand what makes cases bulge. It's impossible for any case to bulge when it's fired. The chamber obviously prohibits any bulging whatsoever. The bulging happens during the reloading process, and case bulge is made much worse when you bump the shoulder back more than -.001" or -.002" shorter that your actual chamber.

Here's why:

The farther your case shoulder is bumped back, the more your case will stretch when it's fired. Case stretching thins the brass (above the belt) and continued reloading thins the brass even more. Once the brass becomes thin it will easily bulge. Eventually your brass becomes paper thin, and you'll get a headspace separation.

I now have a video that shows 20 minutes at the reloading bench using this die and the Digital Headspace Gauge. It's very easy to make your handloads fit your chamber far better than factory loads. Check it out at WWW.LARRYWILLIS.COM

 

[fguffey]

"... you just don't understand"

F. Guffey

 

[Craigman]

so do you have to "buy" the video too? Seems to me, to sell a die, you would want to post the video somewhere or send it free with purchase. ??? I couldn't find it on the webpage.

I may "not understand" I have only been reloading for 2 years in small amounts, but can you post this on youtube or something? I bet it would do wonders for selling your die.

 

[Innovative]

Craigman .....

If my video was a homemede project, I definitely would include it for free. However, I paid a high price to have a professional video made. I also provide free reloading tech support by email or phone.

This video is on the homepage ,,,, just scroll down, and you'll see it below the collet die.

 

[Horsemany]

The chamber obviously prohibits any bulging whatsoever

.

Huh?? It is possible for the chamber to be larger in diameter than the sizer die,especially if the die is adjusted incorrectly. I've had several die/rifle combinations where this was the case. Sloppy chambers do exist.

 

[Innovative]

Horsemany .......

Of course there are differenrt size chambers, and all dies aren't exactly the same either. That's not the case bulge problem we're talking about.

Some shooters assume that belted cases don't bulge. However, when they actually start measuring their handloads above the belt, it becomes clear why their handloads are hard to chamber.

 

[ranger335v]

I don't own a belted magnum but reload some for a couple of other fellows who do. So far I've had no need to reduce cases above the belt but understand why some do. For them, the collet sizer is a useful tool.

I've had several case shoulder length/ogive gages much longer than Larry has been making his dial indicator tool so I don't have it either. That said, his dial gage will clearly do what it claims to do, and do it easily for both shoulder location and bullet seating to the ogive. If I didn't already have most of the case gages I need I'd sure get the Innovative Technologies device. It would obviously work equally well and would have cost me significantly less than the collection of gages I'm using from RCBS, Stoney Point, Hornady and Sinclair.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

Has anyone used the Willis belted magnum collet resizing die? I was hoping to get max life from my .338 win mag brass and thought this looked like a good tool. Does anyone else make something similar?
Also does anyone have experience with the digital headspace guage as well?
http://www.larrywillis.com/index.html

old thread but hot topic. I would not recommend spending $100 for a collet die set, that full length resizes a belted mag shell. Instead, I would recommend getting a Hornady neck sizer die. I bought one NOS for $20 at a gun shop, and it resizes the neck only, and doesn't touch the shoulder or case body at all.

Think about it, when the shell if fired, the brass expands to fill the chamber by design, and acts as an O-ring and seals gas pressure. Repeated full length resizing is going to make that brass flow somewhere. With a traditional full length resizing die set, it would push the brass down to the area just above the belt, and out top making the neck grow longer, eventually requiring trimming if it got too long.

Just neck sizing, there is very little if any brass flow.

Using a collet is just moving the area where the brass flows. Instead of it flowing above the belt and expanding there, it will flow to the area just above the collect, where the 2 pieces of the die meet, will form a doughnut there eventually. The case will still grow longer like before as well.

I don't understand this emphasis on resizing the area just above the belt ? That's not what causes a belted magnum shell, not to chamber. What causes it not to chamber, is the shoulder gets work hardened, and the die can no longer push it down- the shell starts to headspace on the shoulder rather than the belt. This happens typically when brass if fired on one gun, then reloaded and chambered in another gun with a tighter chamber.

The answer isn't full length resize to the smallest spec so the reload fits any chamber- the answer is, neck size only and use that ammo in only one rifle. Someone else in this thread stated, they didn't see the need to resize above the belt- I agree with him. He obviously does a lot of reloading and shooting. Here's why:

If the shell chambered and fired, and was extracted, it's fire formed to the chamber, if it came out, it should go back in, if it's only neck sized to reload it.

What do professional bench rest shooters do ? They neck size only.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

.

Huh?? It is possible for the chamber to be larger in diameter than the sizer die,especially if the die is adjusted incorrectly. I've had several die/rifle combinations where this was the case. Sloppy chambers do exist.

yes sloppy chambers do exist, the answer therefore is not to keep full length resizing to minimum spec and working the heck out of the brass, and making it expand and contract excessively each time the round is fired in that sloppy chamber again.

that would heavily work the brass and DECREASE brass life, even if a collet die is used

the answer is, neck size only.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

+1. Mine's never been used. I bought mine cause I thought I was having bulging the sizer die couldn't take out. Turned out I just needed to bump the shoulder a bit more. I think a chamber would have to be pretty sloppy to need this die.

I can tell you have a lot of experience with reloading and aren't inclined to pay $100 for a die set, that in reality you don't need.

EXACTLY- the problem with belted magnums not chambering, or any cartridge for that matter, is because of the SHOULDER getting work hardened and not being sized back far enough. Once that gets sufficiently work hardened, no press or die will resize it. The case will split first, or crush the shoulder.

The answer is, anneal the case necks in a shallow pan of water, with a plumbers torch, then knock the cases over into the water to quench them, to soften the brass in that area. Then it can be worked again.

Or, use a short piece of pipe slipped over the neck, and knock the shoulder back. A press and die has a lot of leverage, but a hammer and block of wood under it, will move a shoulder back into place easier than a press will, sometimes.

The collet die is a frill, and an expensive one at that. If the cases are being fire formed and neck sized, and only used in that particular rifle again, there's no need for a collet die. You WANT that case expanded to the chamber in all areas except for the neck- that's what gives best accuracy ! Then the shell can't rattle around in there when chambered. Collet resizing the entire case, is counterproductive.

On the issue of cases not chambering for hunting, any wise and experienced hunter who is also reloading his own ammo, shoujld run all the shells through the rifle action first, in a safe manner, to be sure they feed and extract/eject. Any that don't chamber, don't use. In every case, the ones that don't chamber, that I've run in to, were because the shoulder was work hardened, and not pushed back far enough to allow the bolt to close and headspace correctly. It never was the bulge just above the belt causing the problem. And this was always when ammo and brass was moved from one rifle, to another.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

I have had that die for several years and have never had the need to use it. I think it's the solution to a problem that in most cases doesn't exist.

ditto- exactly

and if you really want to resize right to the belt, you can have a collet and punch made, for about $20

take a piece of bar stock, drill a .512" hole in it, and cut the end off an old screwdriver to use as a punch.

or buy an old manual reloading die w/punch, this is not a new concept, they've been around since 1850's

 

[CaptainCrossman]

no "extra" resizing should be used based on measuring of brass only that is a misleading approach to precision handloading for a bolt action- the way to test brass is as previously stated by other posteres here, if it chambers or not in the particular rifle being loaded for- any resizing beyond that, is needlessly working the brass to a minimum spec, then making it expand again to a maximum spec when firing it- over and over again, would shorten brass life, not lengthen it- the best method is neck size only, when reloading for a bolt action.

using a collet die to minimum spec, you are loading the ammo on a production line basis to fit any firearm, even a semi auto

that's not conducive to maximum accuracy, because then the shell is rattling around in the chamber, with a lot of space between the shell and chamber.

if the brass expanded and filled the chamber, it's then fire formed, what better fit it that ? Why compress is again to make it loose again. The only place you want to resize it, is to hold the bullet. If it then chambers, there's no need to resize it anywhere else on the case.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

December 19, 2010, 11:45 AM #6
Innovative
Member
Join Date: October 24, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 216 The Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die is totally different from any other type of sizing die. The top of this die also shows you when this "extra" resizing is needed.
THERE IS NEVER ANY "EXTRA" RESIZING NEEDED, BEYOND NECK SIZING TO HOLD THE BULLET, IF THE RELOADED ROUND THEN CHAMBERS. The best sizing check, is if it chambers or not. Otherwise you keep overworking the brass to the smallest spec

For those that own this die, read step number 9 in the instructions.

For those that believe only sloppy chambers need this die, you just don't understand what makes cases bulge. It's impossible for any case to bulge when it's fired. The chamber obviously prohibits any bulging whatsoever. The bulging happens during the reloading process, and case bulge is made much worse when you bump the shoulder back more than -.001" or -.002" shorter that your actual chamber.

IF YOU NECK SIZE ONLY WITH A HORNADY NECK SIZE DIE, THERE IS NO BULGING. THE CASE IF FIRE FORMED TO THE CHAMBER, LEAVE ALL OTHER DIMENSIONS AT CHAMBER DIMENSION. A bolt action has camming power to chamber a fire formed shell that is only neck sized. Running the ammo through the gun ahead of time, without firing it, actually sizes it further as well.

Here's why:

The farther your case shoulder is bumped back, the more your case will stretch when it's fired. Case stretching thins the brass (above the belt) and continued reloading thins the brass even more. Once the brass becomes thin it will easily bulge. Eventually your brass becomes paper thin, and you'll get a headspace separation.

THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD NOT BUMP THE SHOULDER BACK WHEN RELOADING-JUST NECK SIZE IT, LEAVE THE SHOULDER WHERE IT IS. NOW IT'S NOT BEING WORKED, NO BULGES ANYWHERE. The problem is created by full length resizing, which is un-necessary for a bolt action hunting or target rifle. Semiautos, maybe. Ammo production for any type of firearm made, yes. But not reloading for a specific rifle where you already have the fire formed cases ! The rifle has already resized the brass to the size it likes, free of charge. The rifle chamber is the die.

I now have a video that shows 20 minutes at the reloading bench using this die and the Digital Headspace Gauge. It's very easy to make your handloads fit your chamber far better than factory loads. Check it out at WWW.LARRYWILLIS.COM

It's obvious you're in this for profit if you're also selling the video, nothing wrong with that, but after buying the collet dies, video, etc. I could just buy 6 boxes of new factory ammo instead at the same cost- and wouldn't even have to reload at all. This isn't rocket science. Any $20 used neck size die found at any gun show, will reload for a belted magnum cartridge, if the brass if first fire formed in the rifle, and the proper length. The only time one needs to full length resize, is if the cases and ammo were obtained from another rifle or commercial source, and not yet fire formed, and they don't chamber in your own rifle. If they chamber, let the rifle do the full length resizing. If they don't chamber, it's the shoulder that's the culprit, not the area above the belt. If they still don't chamber after being full length resized with a conventional die, then the shoulder has to be annealed, and/or bumped back with a manual tool and hammer. The cases would have to be so drastically bulged to require a collet die, they would already be on the verge of breaking through due to stretch above the belt. Using a collet die, just moves the brass flow higher on the case, to the area just above the collet.

 

[Innovative]

Questions ??

Captain Crossman .....

Most of us do work for a paycheck, and so do I. Tight fitting handloads are very common for belted magnum handloaders, (and 90% of the time, it's caused by bulged cases).

This case bulge symptom is well understood by the manufacturers of reloading equipment. However, I patented this collet resizing die. Case bulge happens during the handloading process, NEVER when it's in the chamber. So, it makes very little difference if your chamber is tight or loose.

My original attempt at saving bulged cases (many years ago), was a simple tool like you have. However, the fired case needs to be compressed inwards ONLY, (not shaved) or swagged back against the belt.

As you mentioned, "excessive" FL resizing definitely will make matters worse. However, "accurate" FL resizing is the best way to go. To accurately set your die height, I use the Digital Headspace Gauge.

 

[oldfortyfiveauto]

Also does anyone have experience with the digital headspace guage as well?

I got one last year and it works very well. It's not something you use often, but when you do use it's enlightening. It makes it easy to see how your dies are changing the shoulder/headspace so you can set them properly.