Laser Grips - Limited Tactical Value?

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Willyboi ~

I have regular access to a low light range, and practice in dim & no light fairly often.

In a building so dark that I cannot see my front sight, I am able to draw and hit three IPSC targets in the C zone in less than 3 seconds, at five yards. My low light draw & fires -- hitting the A-zone of an IPSC target at 5 yards -- generally take less than 1.8 seconds from concealment. That's without the laser, and I can do this all day long. These aren't my best numbers, but simply the average. On my best day I'm a little faster.

I tell you this not to brag, but simply to make some observations:

1) I am considerably faster at low light shooting with the laser than I am without it. (Of course I practice both. Foolish not to.)

2) While I can always hit C zones on multiples without the laser, and without the laser I catch the A zone doing multiples about 3/4ths the time, with a laser I always hit dead center of the A zone when I'm doing multiples. My hits are better and more consistent with the laser than without.

3) Shooting moving targets in the dark, I can usually but not always hit the C zone without the laser. About 25% of the time I hit A zone, about 25% of the time I get D zone, and about 50% of the time I get C zone. That doesn't sound too bad, until you realize that a moving target on the range moves smoothly and predictably, compared to the jerky, unpredictable movement of a human being in real life. With a laser, I can always hit C zone or better, and 90% of the time my hits will be in the A zone. (Oh, distance? Five to seven yards, somewhere in there.)

4) Around barricades, I am so much faster and less fumbly with the laser than I am without it that it simply beggars description.

So I'm not a bad shooter in low light. But with a laser in low light, I'm better. My hits are faster, better, and more consistent. I'm quicker on target and when the targets are scored, my scores are far better.

I dunno about you, but I don't care what the FOF guys do. I only care what I can do. Anything I can do to increase the safety of my family while decreasing the safety of the bad guy, I'm going to do.

Oh, incidentally -- there's another option for low-light practice in full light. Take a pair of cheap eye protection goggles, get a can of spray paint, and spray a light layer of paint over the lenses from about two feet away. Make it just thick enough to block most the light, but thin enough that you can see only the outline of your gun at arm's distance. You can mix colors of paint if you want to; that seems to work a little better because it gives a "shadowy" feeling. Mimics low-light conditions pretty well.

pax
 
How reliable is the LaserMax sight on a Glock?
I'd like to add one to my carry gun, but for reliability reasons want to ensure it WILL work, at least as a recoil spring. Too many gizmos fail when needed.
 
ctdonath: Try a search here and particularly on Glocktalk.com for a number of personal reviews on the laser max in Glocks.
I did this recently. There's a lot of opinions on them,and they're quite mixed. Some folks prefer the Crimson Trace equipment instead.
 
I can be behind a barricade or a door, looking thru a little peep hole or the crack between the hinges with only my gun hand showing and shoot very accurately thanks to that BLESSED red dot.

To me this is the best tactical low light gunfigthing tool ever devised.

I have one of the latest model in my Gov't .45 which is loaded with Federal Hydra-Shock 230 grains, with this and one of my modded flashlights outputting 951 lumens or the shorter one outputting 678 lumens I own the night.

pistolFlash.jpg


Best regards
black bear
 
Willyboi said;
Waste of money!! Nobody uses them in the SOF communities..

What's your source of this information? The CT grip have an NSN and I know someone in Army SOF who has remarked on how effective they are in Iraq. Said that they were particularly intimidating and that the Iraqis got especially compliant when illumintated with the laser. They also seem to fear soldiers armed with pistols more then rifles. That goes back to the Saddam days when the pistol was a badge of rank in Saddam's security forces and those carrying pistols were more likely to shoot someone out of hand then a soldier armed with a rifle.

I used to be of the opinion that lasers were fun toys, but had little tactical application unless you were using them as your primary sighting tool while wearing nods. But after having played with one, talked to some tier one trainers, and observed how they can be used to allow you to shoot accurately from unconventional firing positions, I'm sold. Don't have one on my duty weapon yet, (can't make myself give up the Gunner Grips, but have heard rumors about CT working on something new in that area) but I can see the utility of them for more then use with NODs and as a training tool.

black bear said;
I have one of the latest model in my Gov't .45 which is loaded with Federal Hydra-Shock 230 grains, with this and one of my modded flashlights outputting 951 lumens or the shorter one outputting 678 lumens I own the night.

Any problems with the laser washing out on a light background that's illuminated by those very bright lights?

Jeff
 
i favor lasers. tells me a lot about whats going on with my muzzle. with the laser sighted in to point of aim, it points where the muzzle points. if the dot is all over the place, so is the muzzle and shots fired will be also.

some thoughtful practice always helps, shooting is not practice, practice is practice. a learning curve thing. if you are just blasting away without learning, you are digging a hole that you eventually can not climb out of, get disgusted with shooting and give it up for golf.

always remember and think - the gun shoots where you point it. if the shot goes in the dirt, you put it there, not the sights, not the gun, you did it.
 
Jeff White,
Not problem with wash out effect, the dot is seen plenty, who is not seeing is the guy that get hit by 951 lumens or even the 500 lumens of the Surefire M-6.
I am advocating lots of lumens in defensive flashlights because in my experience you can not control the size of the place you are going to search (or clear).
What about if you find yourself in a warehouse or a Theater where you have to reach 20 yards with your light to identify what is that moving shadow over there.
If the light is not powerful enough to show you clear what this is, you could be thinking that is a bad guy, but could be a nun.

Or that man over there could be holding a cell phone, while due to bad light you think he have a pistol!!

Especially with the new LED's light that many people call tactical and in my opinion don't have the reach for illuminating at 20 yards.
Let’s take the most popular of them, a Surefire L-4 Digital Lumamax at 60 lumens considered a "tactical" light.
And let’s take the distance that we have been discussing, 20 yards.
Let me show you what you see at 20 yards with the Surefire L-4 and let me show you what the Surefire M-6 can show you at the same distance.

This is a target located at 20 meters.

This is the Beamshot of the Surefire L-4 (60 lumens)

L-4at20meters.jpg


This is the Surefire M-6 (500 lumens lamp)

SurefireM-6at20meters.jpg


Now do you realize the importance of having the proper powerful light??

Anybody looking at a 500 lumens from a Surefire M-6 or at 951 lumens from one of my modifications is going to be blinded, especially if he has been lurking in the dark with dark adapted eyes!!
You can use the extra time that you will have to evaluate the situation and decide your course of action.
The Laser will be a great aid as you have the guy covered without obstructing your vision with your own arms, and the laser will free you of the tunnel vision that concentrating in the sight cause.

The equipment is there, you have to ask yourself if your life (that you are risking) is worth the price of the Crimson Trace laser grips or of the MEGA light.

Regards
black bear
 
Don't have one on my duty weapon yet, (can't make myself give up the Gunner Grips, but have heard rumors about CT working on something new in that area) but I can see the utility of them for more then use with NODs and as a training tool.


Check out the laser max guide rods.
lms-1911b.jpg


http://lasermax.com

Chris
 
I don't know anyone who's had satisfactory performance from a guide rod laser.

The Crimson Trace laser grips are the best option out there. Very unobtrusive and reliable.

black bear,
Outside of some wasted time and frustraion with an Insights Technology HK UTL, I've run SureFire 6v systems on my duty weapons. I'm currently using a 6v classic system on the 6920 and an X200 on my Kimber Warrior.

Jeff
 
Willyboi said:
Waste of money!! Nobody uses them in the SOF communities..
They may be a waste of money. It depends on your use/misuse of the visible laser and your circumstances. I have not yet shelled out my own cash to buy one for myself, FWIW.

Nobody in SOF may use them right now, though I doubt that as I can tell you that they were in use in 1999, when I got out. Both for pistols (M9) and carbines (M4A1) as part of the SOPMod kit for the M4A1. The kit included a visible laser intended to be mounted on the Picatinny rails. The use was not universal, however.

The utility of the visible laser on the carbine was not nearly as significant as the utility of visible laser on the pistol. Most did not want both a AN/PEQ-2 and a visible laser on their M4A1.

One last note: if SOF does use something does not necessarily make it useful for Joe Citizen and if SOF does not use something does not mean that Joe Citizen won't find it useful. I have yet to find a use for, say, glint tape since I got out. Also, I have no use for that abortion of gear used to rig up a ruck for jumps <shudders>.

SOF & Joe Citizen likely have different objectives and different requirements.
 
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