Wanting to put a laser my springfield xd. Debating between laser max (using a laser that replaces the guild rod) or crimson laser (a grip laser version). The crimson laser in not yet available, until "early 2008". Looking at other modles mounted, I noticed the preassure switch on the ring finger when gripped. The button seemed bulky, any thoughts. With the laser max, any issues with accuracy or loss of after several slide actions? Anyone have any other thoughts in gerneral that could assist me in making a decision?
Laser Max vs. Crimson Laser
- Thread starter jlg30
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I liked the idea of the guide rod laser, but have heard that after many shots and especially with dirty ammo that the lens can get a little dirty due to its proximity to the muzzle.
I decided when I buy I'll get the CTC grips, partly for that reason but also because the batteries will be easier to replace and the aimpoint can be adjusted.
I decided when I buy I'll get the CTC grips, partly for that reason but also because the batteries will be easier to replace and the aimpoint can be adjusted.
Primersinmyshoe
Member
I have the Crimson Trace grips on a full size 1911 and a S&W 642. They work great. With the Lasermax, don't you have to operate a separate switch to turn it on? The CT grips just require you to hold the gun in a regular shooting grip. Plus, the CT grips are adjustable for windage and elevation.
armoredman
Member
I use Crimson Trace, outstanding stuff.
SuperDuty7.3
Member
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- Nov 15, 2007
- Messages
- 16
i have heard that the guide rod laser moves to much while shooting and wont stay accurate.
charlie-xray
Member
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
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- 5
say go to the CTC, the lasermax looses it's zero after a couple of hundred rounds.
10-Ring
Member
I have a CT unit on one of my Berettas -- good stuff!
Don't need either....Lasers don't help your accuracy so why do you like them?
Heck, I've witness people at the gun range start off as bad shots and don't seem to improve...I believe its becasue they are hoping the laser will improve their shooting skills instead of working on thier shooting technics.
Chuck the laser and work on your shooting skills.
Heck, I've witness people at the gun range start off as bad shots and don't seem to improve...I believe its becasue they are hoping the laser will improve their shooting skills instead of working on thier shooting technics.
Chuck the laser and work on your shooting skills.
possum
Member
i like both types, i like the fact that the laser max dosen't change the grip frame at all, but the crimson trace are nice to. i think that i would go with the laser max, though they are quite expensive.
LaserMax Review G21 & G19...
We installed LaserMax in our G21 and G19, in 11/2005 and 02/2006 respectively. To date, we are very pleased with the operation of both units.
Initial installation takes a few minutes, and close attention to detail is required, but once that's done, removing and reinstalling the LaserMax is about as easy as popping in (or out) the OEM guide rod.
Collimation is unnecessary, as LaserMax units arrive ready to go. On both weapons, POI is just above POA, out to the back of our range. Both our LaserMax units have thousands of rounds on them, and have held zero just fine. Both our LaserMax units still have all original components, including battery caps, springs, and even batteries, for that matter. They have proved to be rugged and reliable.
The only glitch has been that the LaserMax unit in my G21 occasionally turns itself on while firing. It has, however, never failed to activate. I accept this... The unit in Judy's G19 has been flawless.
I don't know that setting windage and elevation is a big advantage on a pistol-mounted laser. These units are used for self-defense, and not sniping. LaserMax is certainly accurate enough for SD/HD purposes.
There are two schools of thought for setting a laser, and both work:
1) Parallel Beam
2) Sweet Spot
1) With the LaserMax's emitter so close to the bore axis, the Parallel Beam approach works just fine, with beam and bullet running parallel out to practical pistol ranges. The offset between the red dot and the round hit is less than 1/4" in both our guns, and I can routinely "core" a target with either pistol.
2) The Sweet Spot approach has the laser intersecting the bullet's path at a distance determined optimal by the shooter. Inside or outside that distance, the beam and bullet grow farther apart; this becomes very apparent in laser/light combos, where the laser may be inches from the bore axis.
The LaserMax's pulsing beam is indeed easy to pick up on a complex background, and while LaserMax is not the brightest laser available, it's plenty bright for indoor use, in all but bright daylight. Attached is a pic of Judy's G19, equipped with Surefire X200B and LaserMax, pinning down a corner in a fully darkened room. Not bad for a pistol that fits in your pocket!
The LaserMax lens does indeed get clouded from muzzle blast. This happens far more quickly (say 100 rounds) with cheaper practice ammos. The premium ammos, with their cleaner burning formulas, cloud the lens far less. Again, these units are designed for self-defense, and it is unlikely any real world situation would result in hundreds of rounds fired.
Cleaning is simple. Just use a Q-tip and lens cleaner (or alcohol), and blast dry with canned air.
Lasers should not replace marksmanship skills. They are an augment to your arsenal, and properly applied, they're deadly accurate. Police departments report drastic increases in shooting scores with laser-equipped guns. Lasers also get the nod from our soldiers in Iraq that employ them.
Lasers offer many advantages, but intelligent use of them (as with tactical lights) must be studied and understood. It is true that the improper use of a laser (or light) could get you shot!
Proper use of lasers (and lights) offer many advantages--such as allowing you to hold zero on a perp, while dialing 911. They are also excellent training tools--Judy straightened out another shooter last range trip, with just four shots from her LaserMax equipped G19. New shooters are usually shocked at how unsteady their hands are!
For practice purposes, only a small percentage of time need be dedicated to laser training. Once you get it, you got it!
Removing LaserMax requires no tools. It's convenient that you can just pop in the OEM guide rod/spring for extended range practice!
The only other product we seriously considered was Crimson Trace.
While I would not hesitate to put Crimson Trace Grips on a 1911, or revolver, I did not like their impact on the ergonomics of the Glock pistols. The features of the Glock models are not common to the rest of their product line...
Conversely, I have read very favorable reviews on the CT grips from other Glock owners. So, I'd suggest trying both set ups before buying.
Overall, I give LaserMax a strong thumbs up, and recommendation.
Here's a link to a professional review that parallels my own experience:
http://www.commtechreview.net/firearms/lasermax.htm
--Ray
We installed LaserMax in our G21 and G19, in 11/2005 and 02/2006 respectively. To date, we are very pleased with the operation of both units.
Initial installation takes a few minutes, and close attention to detail is required, but once that's done, removing and reinstalling the LaserMax is about as easy as popping in (or out) the OEM guide rod.
Collimation is unnecessary, as LaserMax units arrive ready to go. On both weapons, POI is just above POA, out to the back of our range. Both our LaserMax units have thousands of rounds on them, and have held zero just fine. Both our LaserMax units still have all original components, including battery caps, springs, and even batteries, for that matter. They have proved to be rugged and reliable.
The only glitch has been that the LaserMax unit in my G21 occasionally turns itself on while firing. It has, however, never failed to activate. I accept this... The unit in Judy's G19 has been flawless.
I don't know that setting windage and elevation is a big advantage on a pistol-mounted laser. These units are used for self-defense, and not sniping. LaserMax is certainly accurate enough for SD/HD purposes.
There are two schools of thought for setting a laser, and both work:
1) Parallel Beam
2) Sweet Spot
1) With the LaserMax's emitter so close to the bore axis, the Parallel Beam approach works just fine, with beam and bullet running parallel out to practical pistol ranges. The offset between the red dot and the round hit is less than 1/4" in both our guns, and I can routinely "core" a target with either pistol.
2) The Sweet Spot approach has the laser intersecting the bullet's path at a distance determined optimal by the shooter. Inside or outside that distance, the beam and bullet grow farther apart; this becomes very apparent in laser/light combos, where the laser may be inches from the bore axis.
The LaserMax's pulsing beam is indeed easy to pick up on a complex background, and while LaserMax is not the brightest laser available, it's plenty bright for indoor use, in all but bright daylight. Attached is a pic of Judy's G19, equipped with Surefire X200B and LaserMax, pinning down a corner in a fully darkened room. Not bad for a pistol that fits in your pocket!
The LaserMax lens does indeed get clouded from muzzle blast. This happens far more quickly (say 100 rounds) with cheaper practice ammos. The premium ammos, with their cleaner burning formulas, cloud the lens far less. Again, these units are designed for self-defense, and it is unlikely any real world situation would result in hundreds of rounds fired.
Cleaning is simple. Just use a Q-tip and lens cleaner (or alcohol), and blast dry with canned air.
Lasers should not replace marksmanship skills. They are an augment to your arsenal, and properly applied, they're deadly accurate. Police departments report drastic increases in shooting scores with laser-equipped guns. Lasers also get the nod from our soldiers in Iraq that employ them.
Lasers offer many advantages, but intelligent use of them (as with tactical lights) must be studied and understood. It is true that the improper use of a laser (or light) could get you shot!
Proper use of lasers (and lights) offer many advantages--such as allowing you to hold zero on a perp, while dialing 911. They are also excellent training tools--Judy straightened out another shooter last range trip, with just four shots from her LaserMax equipped G19. New shooters are usually shocked at how unsteady their hands are!
For practice purposes, only a small percentage of time need be dedicated to laser training. Once you get it, you got it!
Removing LaserMax requires no tools. It's convenient that you can just pop in the OEM guide rod/spring for extended range practice!
The only other product we seriously considered was Crimson Trace.
While I would not hesitate to put Crimson Trace Grips on a 1911, or revolver, I did not like their impact on the ergonomics of the Glock pistols. The features of the Glock models are not common to the rest of their product line...
Conversely, I have read very favorable reviews on the CT grips from other Glock owners. So, I'd suggest trying both set ups before buying.
Overall, I give LaserMax a strong thumbs up, and recommendation.
Here's a link to a professional review that parallels my own experience:
http://www.commtechreview.net/firearms/lasermax.htm
--Ray
Attachments
wally
Member
Get a cheap laser (a $20 pointer and some tape will work) to improve your trigger skills with dry-fire. Use the laser dot movement on a blank wall to show your errors.
This is how a laser will improve your shooting.
I like CTC lasergrips on my bed side gun as my presbyoptia makes night sights unusable.
--wally.
This is how a laser will improve your shooting.
I like CTC lasergrips on my bed side gun as my presbyoptia makes night sights unusable.
--wally.
the_fallguy
Member
Here's my 0.02
IMO, a laser can be an excellent visual deterrent in a confrontational situation (the possibility of not having to pull the trigger is worth a lot more to me than knowing where the firearm is pointed). It can also provide a good visual confirmation when training to use a firearm w/o indexing the sight (so long as it doesn't become a crutch), and an excellent indicator of your trigger control during dry firing practice. Keep in mind that a laser should never be utilized as a substitute for a light, as it will tell you where the bullet is going to impact, but not what it is going to impact.
As for the Lasermax vs. Crimson Trace Grips, I would choose the Lasermax hands down for any auto. The reasons are as follows:
Because the LM is in closer proximity to the bbl, it will be much closer to the point of impact at multiple distances. This is very important if you are depending on the laser for accuracy purposes (you would probably be better off spending your cash on practice ammo and quality instruction if this is the case). Because the CTG is not as close to the barrel, the point that the bullet's path intersects with the laser's path is very specific. That means that the laser will only be pin-point accurate at a particular distance.
An annoying side affect of the CTG's laser placement is its interference with the proper placement of the trigger finger (remember, this is only my opinion - I don't want to offend anybody). If you are not in grave danger with the front sight/laser on the immediate threat your finger should be off the trigger, extended to its highest natural limit of travel along the firearm's frame. Unfortunately, for me anyway, this completely obstructs the path of the laser, making it useless. Another minor inconvenience from the lase placement is the limitation the CTGs can put on holster availability, but most custom makers will work around that for you.
My final gripe with the CTG is limited to the models that don't have a manual shut-off switch. While a laser is intended to indicate the bullet's point of impact, it also has the side effect of illuminating the point of origin. In other words, in a low light situation you can become a shining red beacon to everyone in the immediate area. Since you don't always want to give your position away, it makes since to use a laser that has a manual shut-off.
As far as the LM eventually losing its alignment, I have owned three of them and never experienced this even after years of use. In response to the lens becoming fouled - sure that will happen on the shooting range, but you clean it off with alcohol when you're done shooting. Anyway, you won't fire anywhere near enough shots to foul the lens in a defensive shooting situation (if you do, you've got much bigger problems than a dirty laser lens).
No offense intended to anyone who prefers the CTG. I don't think they are bad pieces of equipment at all, I just don't like their design as much as the Lasermax for my uses. This is my opinion on the Lasermax vs. the Crimson Trace Grips. I hope it helps. In the end your opinion is the most important thing, since your life is depending on the gear you choose to carry.
IMO, a laser can be an excellent visual deterrent in a confrontational situation (the possibility of not having to pull the trigger is worth a lot more to me than knowing where the firearm is pointed). It can also provide a good visual confirmation when training to use a firearm w/o indexing the sight (so long as it doesn't become a crutch), and an excellent indicator of your trigger control during dry firing practice. Keep in mind that a laser should never be utilized as a substitute for a light, as it will tell you where the bullet is going to impact, but not what it is going to impact.
As for the Lasermax vs. Crimson Trace Grips, I would choose the Lasermax hands down for any auto. The reasons are as follows:
Because the LM is in closer proximity to the bbl, it will be much closer to the point of impact at multiple distances. This is very important if you are depending on the laser for accuracy purposes (you would probably be better off spending your cash on practice ammo and quality instruction if this is the case). Because the CTG is not as close to the barrel, the point that the bullet's path intersects with the laser's path is very specific. That means that the laser will only be pin-point accurate at a particular distance.
An annoying side affect of the CTG's laser placement is its interference with the proper placement of the trigger finger (remember, this is only my opinion - I don't want to offend anybody). If you are not in grave danger with the front sight/laser on the immediate threat your finger should be off the trigger, extended to its highest natural limit of travel along the firearm's frame. Unfortunately, for me anyway, this completely obstructs the path of the laser, making it useless. Another minor inconvenience from the lase placement is the limitation the CTGs can put on holster availability, but most custom makers will work around that for you.
My final gripe with the CTG is limited to the models that don't have a manual shut-off switch. While a laser is intended to indicate the bullet's point of impact, it also has the side effect of illuminating the point of origin. In other words, in a low light situation you can become a shining red beacon to everyone in the immediate area. Since you don't always want to give your position away, it makes since to use a laser that has a manual shut-off.
As far as the LM eventually losing its alignment, I have owned three of them and never experienced this even after years of use. In response to the lens becoming fouled - sure that will happen on the shooting range, but you clean it off with alcohol when you're done shooting. Anyway, you won't fire anywhere near enough shots to foul the lens in a defensive shooting situation (if you do, you've got much bigger problems than a dirty laser lens).
No offense intended to anyone who prefers the CTG. I don't think they are bad pieces of equipment at all, I just don't like their design as much as the Lasermax for my uses. This is my opinion on the Lasermax vs. the Crimson Trace Grips. I hope it helps. In the end your opinion is the most important thing, since your life is depending on the gear you choose to carry.
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