Laser Simulator Training Facilities

[Kleanbore]

There is one near where I live at Southern Armory LLC, a local gun store. I went out to see it today, but it was down waiting for parts.

One enters a room containing large flat screens with a special training gun; the pistol is a special Glock that projects a laser beam and that uses compressed carbon dioxide to actuate the slide and provide recoil.

The system contains numerous scenarios. The student encounters guys with guns and people who are unarmed and decides how to react. If the student misses, or does not shoot in time, and the other person or persons shoot first, the screen goes dark.

If the student scores a hit--even one that would likely not be effective in the real world--the target 'falls'.

There are facilities of this kind at Gander Mountain Academy locations. One of the Personal Defense Network Premium Videos takes the viewer into one with Rob Pincus, who is in a simulated store when the place is robbed. The video is called "Bystander During an Armed Robbery."

Two men enter the store, perhaps together or perhaps not. One shoots the clerk and turns the gun on Rob, who shoots three shots at him in 0.4 seconds. The other man appears, swings, around, and aims at Rob, who shoots five shots in 0.85 seconds. Some of Rob's shots miss.

The folks at Southern Armory tell me that the student will experience real stress and will be pumping a lot of adrenalin. Some of the local police are using it.

I intend to try it out, and I suggest that anyone who is near a Gander Mountain Academy look into it.

My first impressions are that this kind of training can be of much greater real value than just putting in more target practice on the square range; that those who glibly say that "placement is everything" are of course correct, but that that does not mean they will be able to do much about placement when the chips are down; and that one may well end up placing more priority on magazine capacity than before.

I'll report back after having tried it.

 

[strambo]

It is good training and definitely has a place. It fills in the force on force role and works on a lot of the same skills, decision making, verbal judo and marksmanship under stress. A place near me also has a 300 degree room which is great for situational awareness.

Most people treat them like video games and entertainment I think (dates, company team building event etc.), but anyone who has some professional defensive training will get a lot out of it. I took my wife after she had been to a 2 day defensive handgun class, she did very well, I was impressed.

Don't be afraid to vocalize, I looked back at one point and all the instructors were watching me in the back...apparently they hadn't seen someone yell commands like that before. I make them believe I will shoot them if they do not immediately comply...and I will.

 

[herrwalther]

Sounds like the Engagement Skills Trainer the military uses. Smaller and more portable versions are useful for MPs to setup anywhere there is an outlet. The controller has a knob to control the aggression of the suspect in the simulation. Based on the vocal and body language of the soldier/trainee, the situation can be escalated or deescalated using videos of real people. Older soldiers often call these laser training aids "Glorified Duck Hunt" but they can be very useful regardless.

 

[Jeff White]

Is anyone writing simulations for these systems that are written for an armed citizen and not someone with a duty to act? I have to question the decision making they teach if the scenarios are written for LE.

Even the generic LE scenarios we used to work through on the FATS simulator we not always applicable to our department policy manual.

One scenario in particular involved the arrest of a cook at his place of work for a misdemeanor warrant. The book solution was to draw on the suspect because he was chopping vegetables when he was encountered. No officer on my department did that. No officer was "killed" when the suspect lunged across the stainless steel prep table that was between the officer and the suspect, everyone drew in time. Yet the "school" solution said the draw Que was seeing the suspect chopping vegetables.

I have a big problem with private citizens training on LE based scenarios. To my knowledge no state issues a peace officers commission with a CCW. Private citizens should not train on scenarios designed for people with a duty to act.

 

[Kleanbore]

I have only seen the one Pincus showed, and that was certainly aimed at citizens not sworn to enforce the law.

The guy at the store said they have hundreds. I say a snippet of one, and it was on the cusp. (If I could have gotten out the door I would have, but it would have been lawful to intervene.)

 

[strambo]

Yes, they have hundreds of scenarios. When I went through, they only put us in 1 or 2 LE scenarios (out of maybe 10 or so?) where we were LE officers just for fun, the rest were CCW situations.

Plus, you can respond any way you want to, just because a LEO would be issuing commands to make an arrest in a scenario, you can be disengaging and retreating instead. A good instructor/operator running the program will give you feedback based on your actions/decisions in light of your CCW status and the situation.

My operator didn't know what to make of me, he failed to ask my background and experience so he was continually surprised at my responses and skill level. At the end there was a 300 degree steel speed target stage, he gave some example par times, I beat his personal best time and I don't even own a Glock. If I'd have had my Sig...

A good operator is key to it being a good training experience.

 

[herrwalther]

Is anyone writing simulations for these systems that are written for an armed citizen and not someone with a duty to act? I have to question the decision making they teach if the scenarios are written for LE.

I can see your concern. The problem with how LE/Mil trains is the difference in options. A civilian is more likely going to avoid that shady or suspicious looking person, where someone in law enforcement or military has that duty to act in a situation. It can be difficult making a training that have avoid or shoot outcomes with little or no middle ground. Even though I am not an MP, I really enjoyed training in their escalation EST. A couple hours in there, I greatly improved my draw speed on random engagements compared to using it everytime, based on my actions.

 

[BLB68]

So, do the Gander Mountain things have something like the knob herrwalther described?

Do they plan to have non-Glock guns? Are the Glocks they're using Gen4? (There's slightly less issue with the grip bump on those, from what I hear.)

I was watching some YouTube videos of their simulator training. Not sure about the company's training standards given the grip they were allowing a trainee to use. (Thumbs straight up, behind the slide of the Glock.)