Lasers - does anyone actually use them?

[dmazur]

I use CT grips on 1911's as both a training aid (to watch jump when dry-firing) and as a practical aid to shooting from awkward positions, bad lighting, etc.

I still practice a lot with the iron sights. In fact, I replaced the factory rears with a "retro" sight with a slightly wider notch, to make picking up the front sight easier.

I also practice with the CT grips turned on.

Not bragging, but I believe I would be a serious problem to a BG with either irons or the CT.

 

[briansmech]

ive got the mx6 on an xd45compact for HD, and the ctc grips on a 638 that i carry regularly.

i really have yet to figure out how expanding my ability to land on target with such extras could make things worse than NOT having such extras.

i practice 90% without- outdoor range, during the day, iron sights and instint are just too easy to click on. but on overcast or late days, pushing a magazine or cylinder full of poppers thru using the lights makes for, without any doubt, faster more accurate hit placement.

i have to lean towards the neigh sayers being inexperienced with the subject, or simply not willing to open their minds to the possibilities.

 

[mjrodney]

Still working for a living with a long commute and restrictions on my time has me exercising outdoors well before dawn.

I carry an Airweight snub with a CT grip simply because I can't see the iron sights very well in the dark.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Fixxxer
I thought about getting a laser for my SD weapon, but I've been practicing point shooting and I'm pretty comfortable with that technique now.

I like point shooting.
I guess I'm about average in speed and accuracy, maybe a bit below average.

But throw in the laser and my speed increases and accuracy becomes about as good as it gets.


Last evening I was "point shooting" shooting my laser equipped 22/45. I've got a steel plate that's about COM size.
Starting at distances from 7 yards to 15 yards, I'd move in random directions as I fired double and triple taps.
Out of about 80 rounds I missed the plate about 7 times.
If not using the laser I'd guess my misses would be 50 percent or more.

Fun shooting.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Just how long did it take the "group" members to gain their level of proficiency with iron sights?
And yet they dismiss the laser because they can't instantly do better with it than the method they have been using for years.

Good point...but, if what I am already doing works, why would I change technique and spend a bunch of time (and money) trying to learn to use something whose fundamentals are contrary to what I already use? And besides, it's the marketing propaganda from Crimson Trace, not the movies, that spout how easy they are to use. Hey, if lasers work for you, great, I'm happy for you. But don't tell me that I'm stupid for not liking them. They don't work for me, except under the conditions I mentioned earlier.
The OP asked for opinions. I gave mine.

As for the "intimidation factor" that seems to be a favorite CT selling point, how often do bad guys watch their own chest to see if there is a laser pointed at it? What the laser really does, is let the BG know when a gun pointed at them ISN'T on target.

 

[PX15]

Phil De:

Respectfully, if the method you are using works, in anything, there obviously is no reason to change...

My problem was that with advancing age and declining vision associated with less than steady hands reduced my accuracy potential to the point I was uncomfortable, so I gave Crimson Trace Lasergrips a try.

I found that, FOR ME, they worked as advertised, and I love 'em, but having said that I would never try to talk someone else into buying them just because I'm a fan.

I don't know your age or physical condition.. Perhaps you are blessed by great genes and will never lose your sharp vision or hand strength, but most do, sooner or later, and THAT's when you might chose to revisit the laser option.

I didn't leave "iron sights" because I wanted to.. I left iron sights because I wasn't accurate enough with them, even though I had been for decades previously.

The only thing I can say about my firearms with CT's is that when you put the laser dot on a target at any reasonable self defense range you can indeed put a nice hole there if you so chose. I can't do that without the CT's, so obviously, for me, the CT's work.

If I didn't need glasses I wouldn't wear them just because someone else tried to talk me into 'em.. But once my vision started going "South" I walked myself into the eye Doctor's office voluntarily, and when I left, with glasses (bi-focal's no less) I had better vision.

It's amazing how perspective changes with advancing age..

Best Wishes, and no offense intended.

Jesse

 

[krs]

M2 Carbine:

krs, as you already said, focus your eyes on the target. DO NOT look for the laser dot it just slows you down, and of course don't stick the gun in front of your face. You will see the laser without looking for it and you will naturally bring the dot to where you are looking.

From the holster or with the gun pointed some where off target,
1. Bring the gun up quickly to somewhere below eye level and pointed at the target. (point shooting)

2. Light the laser as the gun is pointed at the target. The dot should be within a few inches to a foot of where your eyes are focused.

3. Continue to move the dot to the center as you pressure the trigger. With a little practice your laser dot will hit COM a split second before the bullet.

The whole thing should be a smooth continuous motion that will get faster and more accurate with practice.
Works for me.

Yes! You've described what I'm right in the middle of discovering - that if I go back to the point shooting that was working well for me and getting better with each session, and add the laser as a sort of confirmation of my aim it takes out the ambiquity that had been bothering me when I changed range or angle to the target.

So I'm still relying on point shooting without the laser but squeezing on the lightswitch as I come up to fire. I'll put rounds where I'm looking more often, or rather more reliably than I was using only my [getting better] point aiming. I'm also thinking that doing it this way will tend to keep me from too much reliance on the laser.
Point shooting with the refinment offered by Crimson Trace.

I've got a ways to go in getting my hand used to all of this as the coordination needed to both press the trigger with one finger while pressing the grip lightswitch with another finger is something that I wish I'd started practicing when I was younger and easier to train for new tricks.

 

[PX15]

FWIW:

Just personal opinion but I consider self defense range where the use of lethal force would be unquestionably legal (generally speaking) is roughly between 0-7 yards, max... Probably any shooting a person would have to do in self defense would be more like 3-4 yards...

I think the average gun-owner who does any regular practice will have no trouble hitting the center mass of a threat at 3-4 yards, with or without a Laser equipped firearm..

But, the reason I like lasers is because they OFFER a potential for increased accuracy, and even the "potential" is a plus under such circumstances.

Some of my self defense firearms have Lasers, most don't. I feel confident with all of them that they will do what needs to be done if I do my part, but given the option I would have a Crimson Trace Lasergrip on EACH of them.

Just personal opinion, contrary opinions cheerfully welcomed and ignored.

Best Wishes,

Jesse

 

[krs]

I should add that my initial interest in alternative methods of pistol shooting came as a result of a cataract driven lens implant into my left, my shooting, eye. Where I had had 20/20 vision all of my life before the blurring caused by the cataract now I have such farsightedness (they call it though I can't see clearly at any distance with the eye except by use of the new + 3.50 diopter correction.) This has rendered my left eye useless for shooting a pistol. I've been target shooting, still lefthanded but using my right eye and for slow fire situations it works pretty good, especially if I completely block my left dominant eye while doing it. But this is not adequate or even workable for SD.

Enter the Colt New Agent - a pistol essentially without sights that would seem to be designed to promote a point shoot method of aiming. It's a new experience for an old bullseye shooter but it was plain to me that putting a SD situation on hold while I get corrected and ready to shoot in the usual manner was just not going to happen.

With this pistol, and now with most any pistol I can reliably hit what I point at with fair accuracy subject to changing conditions of range, lighting, or angles. So far so good.

And add CT to the mix? Well, see my post above.

Disabled people need protection too!

 

[cjw3cma]

Quote:
So the only people that like lasers are the ones that actually own them?
Well, DUH! Why would you own it if you DIDN'T LIKE IT??


As long as the TOY manufacturers keep coming up with weapon "add-ons" there will be those who just have to have the latest, craziest "thing".

In a real BD situation, which usually is within the 20 ft. range, you point and shoot - no real time to aim (IMHO).

But for practice I agree - any "toy" that helps !!

 

[Loosedhorse]

Big YES on lasers

I find on short barreled revolvers, they actually make accurate shots quicker, since (for me) lining up a shot with that small sight radius takes time (true, at arm's legth that will hardly matter).

The other evening (a few months ago) I unholtered my sem-auto, only to find that the front tritium sight had gone black. Thought that a laser as a back up to the tritum for night use might make sense.

So now I carry two lasers. If you get some of the free vids from Crimson Trace, they'll tell you about how lasers might be useful if you have to deploy your gun in a situ where you can't sight down the barrel to use the iron sights, and how it could be an intimidater. That all might be true. Helpful as a training aid, no question.

But like I said, I think they're better than the on-board sights in the typical snubbie, and useful as a back-up aiming system on a duty-sized autos.

Use them, but don't depend on them.

 

[Disaster]

I find they work great...indoors or in lower light. Much better than night sights...faster. My personal carry is equipped with a Crimson Trace.

 

[Smaug]

The one guy who said: "So the only people who like lasers are the ones who actually own them?"

That seems to be right on the mark, and most others seem pretty closed-minded.

I'm going to equip my HD guns with lasers in the near future.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

The one guy who said: "So the only people who like lasers are the ones who actually own them?"

That seems to be right on the mark, and most others seem pretty closed-minded.

So you are saying that if we don't agree withyou, we are close-minded. Yeah, right. Whatever.

The fact is, defensive shooting is a RESULTS ORIENTED discipline. Whatever works for the particular shooter is correct for THAT PARTICULAR SHOOTER. It has nothing to do with close-mindedness. If you can't see that, maybe you ought to look at the log in your own eye before trying to remove the speck from mine.

If PX15 says he does better with the laser, I'm all for it. Do whatever works for you. For me, I'll take sighted fire every time. If I am shooting for my life, I want to be sure that my hits are hits that are good enough to adversely affect my adversary's ability to return fire, and I do that by using the sights, and I would dare to say, I can do it as fast if not faster than most people can, with better hits, than those that "point shoot." For some people, point shooting will work. Good for them. I'm happy for them. Anything that works is good. But I know what works for me. And lasers and point shooting do not, or they do not to the degree that sighted fire does.

 

[CoRoMo]

I plan to... I think.

I bought a new 2008 model XD 45 to be the dedicated 'nightstand gun'. I plan to fit the rail with a light and probably a laser too so that it will be an ideal 'crawling-through-the-dark-house' gun.

Problem is that so far, I haven't seen one that I like.
The light is mandatory, the laser is a possibility.

 

[Smaug]

So you are saying that if we don't agree withyou, we are close-minded. Yeah, right. Whatever.

No, I'm saying I find it strange that so many people "don't like lasers" who haven't tried them.

 

[rondog]

I've said that I don't use mine for target shooting, but I have to admit the laser is fun for busting cans full of water!

 

[Lonestar49]

The only real "Judges, judging" are ourselves

...

Use them, or not, that IS the choice, and that is the fact we all agree on.

Use them, get rdy to "learn" thru practice, more practice, chasing the red dot is futile, results in trigger jerks, shows up to all that are around you. Yep, everyone gets to see your "not as steady an aim as you thought" only because one has to learn, again, to walk before he can run, and many do not want to go back to such endeavors as "the_crawl" when being viewed by others..

But, overcome what others think, and put in the time, some shorter, some longer, than others, and suddenly you see "and feel" how to again, squeeze off the shot/s and behold, hits are COM, not so much bulls-eyes, but where needed, with both eyes open, with the ability to point, light up the target, shoot, and laser is OFF, just that fast..

It still amazes me that the red dot is almost always moving a tad, but the splash-area targets always tells those that are watching, "they work", and well, without the thought of, "perfection needed" nor can it "really be achieved with every shot", because the red, dancing dot, dances, and you have to dance with her and find the rhythm, and not care what others might be thinking.. when you squeeze off the shots, rather than chase the red dot.

Some can achieve and overcome, some cannot, it's just a matter of being comfy with yourself and your gun, around others, and that is the right choice for any, and all, when it, if ever, comes to the real world of SD/HD

Oh, and about the battery issue, life expectancy, failure, stuff.. My NIB 229R CT 9mm's original batteries are over a year old, always been ON with a total of some 4400 flawless rounds fired, to date, of which I'd say 440, at minimum, of them is with the laser being activated for those shots, ON, shoot, OFF, that fast, and they're still as bright and consistent as they were the first time over a year ago..

I know what battery failure, weakness, will look like, but I'm just as sure, during this ongoing acid test, of 4 - 5 hrs max life of the batteries, and they have not said, "getting tired" yet, but IF they did fail, I have the same confidence with my sights, be them day, or night-night sights, and getting on target without, use of, them.

It will always be a 2-way street, but each going in the same direction.


Ls


Ps.. but thanks for reminding me, it may be time to buy some back-up new batteries..

 

[jaydubya]

Among several other things, Peter De Graves said: As for the "intimidation factor" that seems to be a favorite CT selling point, how often do bad guys watch their own chest to see if there is a laser pointed at it?.

I agree. We are not talking about rocket scientists here, we are talking about scum. How many even know about laser sights? And wouldn't they be looking at that brilliant thingy several yards away rather than the red dot dancing on their chest?

If you are not about to fire, why would you have the laser on anyway?
Cordially, Jack

 

[CountGlockula]

Too mall ninja-like.

 

[akanotken]

To each their own

My threads pretty far back up, so I'll remind all that I own a light/laser combo that I have used like twice a while back.

In an effort to keep everyone's mind open I'll offer the following.

Without question:
Lasers are fun.
They can point out a lot of what you are doing in training. Watch it during dry fire to improve. Watch during live fire recoil to learn. GREAT visual feedback I think.

New shooters get great feedback from the gun this way.

Improve most shooters in range type conditions. i.e. flatish well defined targets. Not sure if bullseye types who shoot tiny groups at 25 or 50 yds. I'm not skilled that way, so I definitely remeber my 7 yard group being pretty awesome.

Oh yea, and hollywood loves them.

Probably true:
Those with poor eyesight are given a great help. I don't have issues (yet, knock on wood). I don't know how they stack up against fiberoptic/nightsights combo's. I'm sure I just don't get it, but a tiny red dot vs lit dots on my sites seem similar?

Open ended questions for me:
With Defense in mind, shots are close, and COM rules. I think the question is two dimensional at least. Will they allow a faster COM shot, Will they allow a more predictable COM shot at speed. Oh yea, and the COM needs to be a three dimensional target with a shirt. If I was doing this, I'd head to the woods and tack shirts to trees.... seriously.
Now, answer this question along these scenarios (I think typical defensive shooting). On the move, from a draw, from a nightstand (or drawer or whatever). From around a corner or in the open. Thro in a hostage shot too. Shoot in daylight, dusk. Ideally street lights and car lights too. Shoot in pitch dark using a flashlight/or the combo light.

Percieved downsides:
I'd be concerned that it's a different style than most of us have practiced. I'm talking about keeping the gun a touch lower. So you'll need to repractice or split your practice. Likely not a big deal, it's pretty intuitive.
Most guns don't have lasers, so this isn't a transferable skill. i.e. stuck using anothers gun.

My biggest percieved drawback:
I believe in KISS. Iron sights are pretty reliable and just are. Quality lasers aren't going to break easily or shift POA. My M6 uses CR123 batt's so I don't worry about them dying when not used (don't know about others). But, it just feels like one more that could go wrong.

Also, they just haven't caught on with police (where handgun is primary choice most times). If it was a clear winner, I'd guess we'd see more of it.

Bottom line for me:
In a defensive shooting, I doubt I'd be doing anything other than point shooting. I never see the sights on close targets in action shooting matches. I don't miss either

So for me, it's more trouble to answer my own questions than I see it improving my ability to defend myself.

I'd also be the first to admit that I haven't shot mine much. I think the choice would be different for newer shooters, and possibly for the most experienced ones as well.

Certainly, everyone can choose for himself. Some would have to overcome cost of ownership (mines already here). I doubt anyone here is "close minded", just have come to a different decision. Likely for a variety of reasons.

Lest anyone thinks I'm a naysayer, note that I haven't sold mine

Hmmm, come to think of it, I WOULD have more peace of mind re: my wife having one.

I'm worse than the politicians these days flip flopping around.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Phil DeGraves Quote:
But don't tell me that I'm stupid for not liking them.

I can't find where I said you are stupid but if I gave that impression, sorry, it wasn't intentional.

Too bad you don't live near my range, I bet I could change your opinion about gun mounted lasers pretty quick.

In any case, by all means, use what works for you.

 

[M2 Carbine]

jaydubya
Among several other things, Peter De Graves said: As for the "intimidation factor" that seems to be a favorite CT selling point, how often do bad guys watch their own chest to see if there is a laser pointed at it?.

I agree. We are not talking about rocket scientists here, we are talking about scum. How many even know about laser sights? And wouldn't they be looking at that brilliant thingy several yards away rather than the red dot dancing on their chest?

If you are not about to fire, why would you have the laser on anyway?
Cordially, Jack

They don't have to be watching their chest.
Have someone point a laser at your chest. I guarantee that when you see the laser light (source) you will instantly get the message that you are targeted and your next move can get you shot.

Personally, I almost totally dismiss the use of the laser for intimidation except in maybe a rare case like for instance,
if in a few minutes when I check my place (outside, dark) if I were to see someone coming out of one of my out buildings I MIGHT light them with the laser/light and quickly evaluate the situation before I finish squeezing the trigger.
But if I have ANY thought that they have a gun or an accomplice they will be hit by the laser/light and bullet at almost the same time.

I don't practice intimidation.
I practice, point-laser-fire, as fast as possible.

I hope I never do it for real, but it is fun to practice.

 

[TDR911]

Laser Training

I am also a firm believer in Lasers. Training is always the key factor. Once you have a training regiment then you can add the use of the laser to point out your trigger control.
I have an airsoft spring gun that I have modified. It is the same model and has the same sights as my carry gun. There is a laser in the barrel. The trigger is set up to turn on the laser at normal reset distance. For close up point shooting, retention type drills it works like mentioned earlier. At close distances you draw and point shooting technique. As you fire the first shot your eyes will pick up the laser. After some practice time you will find that when you fire the second shot your automatic reflexes will correct the point of aim faster that your normal mind can comprehend. With practice you can hit a very small target extremely fast.
I wear the laser training pistol and then as I walk around my house pick different targets and firing at them. I also sometimes place multiple scenarios of real life paper targets and hostage targets and then run the shooting drills thru them. It is even better if you have a friend to set then all up and you run the drill without knowing where they are. Then you do the same for him.
There are lots of inexpensive lasers out there. Solid mount on the rails or grips are a must. The cheaper models will not hold their point of aim and are completely worthless. Mount a laser then bang it, beat it push on it moderately to very hard and then recheck the point of aim. If it is still there it is good.
It is amazing how many people will have a laser installed and then say it is out of alignment. I use a Ranson rest style fixture, then install a laser, test it and know the point of aim and impact is perfect. Hand it to the average shooter and they will always tell you the laser is off. Drag out the holding fixture and prove to them that the gun will put a hole on the laser dot every time. Give it back to them and they shoot in the same place. Trigger control issues are made apparent and can be greatly increased with the proper laser use.
Go to any of the top training facilities and one of the main training drills is trigger control. Dry firing with a laser will help.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

I don't practice intimidation.
I practice, point-laser-fire, as fast as possible.

Exactly! That's why I hate the CT propaganda.

No, I'm saying I find it strange that so many people "don't like lasers" who haven't tried them.

And who would that be? I have tried them, even own one (M6X). Don't like 'em except for some training applications or when you can't see your sights but can see the target which is a pretty rare occurance.

Go to any of the top training facilities and one of the main training drills is trigger control. Dry firing with a laser will help.

Absolutely!