From what I understand LEOSA allows off duty and retired officers to carry concealed off duty. How does this apply to someone who spends a year on the job, or three, or five, or ten etc? Does someone have to work as an LEO until agency retirement for this to apply?
Law enforcement carry question
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As I understand it, LEOSA applies to CURRENT and formally retired LEOs, not to persons who may have once worked as an LEO without retiring. Further, the agency for which a retired LEO worked, has to certify that he/she meets certain standards of training, competence, etc. There is a lot of info here, more than can be given in a response.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety_Act
Jim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety_Act
Jim
Steve in PA
Member
To qualify as a retired officer under LEOSA, the officer must have worked at least 10 years, separated (not necessarily retired) in good standing or separated due to a medical issue as approved by the department.
So, basically the officer had to have worked for at least 10 years. You can't work 1-2-5 years and then get covered under LEOSA.
Also, the department must agree to give the officer a photographic ID card. If the department decides not to, the officer is screwed. LEOSA does NOT mandate a department issued ID cards.
So, basically the officer had to have worked for at least 10 years. You can't work 1-2-5 years and then get covered under LEOSA.
Also, the department must agree to give the officer a photographic ID card. If the department decides not to, the officer is screwed. LEOSA does NOT mandate a department issued ID cards.
RustyShackelford
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LEOSA standards & qualifications....
To be IAW the FLEOSA different states & municipalities have different systems/training requirements.
There is a basic list of standards & qualifications a LE officer must meet.
Note; President Obama signed into federal law changes to FLEOSA to include some federal LE positions & active duty(retired-qualified) military personnel who served in law enforcement or criminal investigations during their careers(service). This includes; DoD/083 police, rail road/AMTRAK police, US Army CIDC special agents, NCIS, USAF/OSI(Office of Special Investigations), MPs, USAF/Security Forces-SPs, Navy MAAs, US Coast Guard. This new FLEOSA change was in 2013.
I'm not fully versed in LEOSA but from what I know a retired, not just part-time or "off duty" officer/trooper/agent must:
1) be fully sworn with arrest powers & trained/authorized to carry duty firearms
2) must have served a min of 10/ten continuous years with the same dept or LE agency. Breaks in service, suspensions, lay-offs, reductions in force(RIFs) do not count.
3) officers or agents must be fit for duty to use LEOSA & must still meet all agency requirements for carry or use of a authorized sidearm. The retiree/medical related separation can't have a diagnosed mental health or disqualification re; medical problem then get LEOSA certification.
4) the officer/trooper must be able to operate the firearm & pass yearly or mandated training standards as set by the FLEOSA agency. To my knowledge the retired officer/service member must use the same duty weapon they trained on or what they qualified with prior to retirement or formal separation. for example; if the officer was issued a Beretta M9 9mm or M11(SIG P229) then they must qualify & carry a M9 or SIG P228/P229. A LEOSA member couldn't qualify on a Glock 17 9mm then carry a sub compact 26 pistol for CCW.
5) Some states & locations permit using duty grade or LE type pistol ammunition(JHPs or hollow point) but other places(like New Jersey) might require retirees/LEOSA to meet the same requirements as a private citizen/gun owner. Meaning no JHPs in handguns meant for CCW.
6) if a LEOSA member does not meet these requirements or maintain the standards(arrests, drug-alcohol issues, can't qualified with sidearm) then they are no longer in the LEOSA.
I'm not a sworn LE officer. I served in the military police(four years) & stay in contact with a few MPs & CIDC agents thru social media.
Id suggest obtaining details & requirements from your state's public safety or licensing/occupational standards board. CT regulates LEOSA and has detailed information for retirees/ex-cops who may want to carry in the state.
NOTE some places like CT may restrict what sidearms or models you can use. They won't allow any SAO or single action pistols like Hi-Powers/1911s.
Even if the LE agency allowed it or let the sworn officer/detective pack it during their service.
To be IAW the FLEOSA different states & municipalities have different systems/training requirements.
There is a basic list of standards & qualifications a LE officer must meet.
Note; President Obama signed into federal law changes to FLEOSA to include some federal LE positions & active duty(retired-qualified) military personnel who served in law enforcement or criminal investigations during their careers(service). This includes; DoD/083 police, rail road/AMTRAK police, US Army CIDC special agents, NCIS, USAF/OSI(Office of Special Investigations), MPs, USAF/Security Forces-SPs, Navy MAAs, US Coast Guard. This new FLEOSA change was in 2013.
I'm not fully versed in LEOSA but from what I know a retired, not just part-time or "off duty" officer/trooper/agent must:
1) be fully sworn with arrest powers & trained/authorized to carry duty firearms
2) must have served a min of 10/ten continuous years with the same dept or LE agency. Breaks in service, suspensions, lay-offs, reductions in force(RIFs) do not count.
3) officers or agents must be fit for duty to use LEOSA & must still meet all agency requirements for carry or use of a authorized sidearm. The retiree/medical related separation can't have a diagnosed mental health or disqualification re; medical problem then get LEOSA certification.
4) the officer/trooper must be able to operate the firearm & pass yearly or mandated training standards as set by the FLEOSA agency. To my knowledge the retired officer/service member must use the same duty weapon they trained on or what they qualified with prior to retirement or formal separation. for example; if the officer was issued a Beretta M9 9mm or M11(SIG P229) then they must qualify & carry a M9 or SIG P228/P229. A LEOSA member couldn't qualify on a Glock 17 9mm then carry a sub compact 26 pistol for CCW.
5) Some states & locations permit using duty grade or LE type pistol ammunition(JHPs or hollow point) but other places(like New Jersey) might require retirees/LEOSA to meet the same requirements as a private citizen/gun owner. Meaning no JHPs in handguns meant for CCW.
6) if a LEOSA member does not meet these requirements or maintain the standards(arrests, drug-alcohol issues, can't qualified with sidearm) then they are no longer in the LEOSA.
I'm not a sworn LE officer. I served in the military police(four years) & stay in contact with a few MPs & CIDC agents thru social media.
Id suggest obtaining details & requirements from your state's public safety or licensing/occupational standards board. CT regulates LEOSA and has detailed information for retirees/ex-cops who may want to carry in the state.
NOTE some places like CT may restrict what sidearms or models you can use. They won't allow any SAO or single action pistols like Hi-Powers/1911s.
Even if the LE agency allowed it or let the sworn officer/detective pack it during their service.
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Steve in PA
Member
5) Some states & locations permit using duty grade or LE type pistol ammunition(JHPs or hollow point) but other places(like New Jersey) might require retirees/LEOSA to meet the same requirements as a private citizen/gun owner. Meaning no JHPs in handguns meant for CCW.
JHP is allowed to be carried in NJ under the provisions of LEOSA by out-of-state LEO's and qualified retired LEO's NOT living in NJ. Retired LEO's living in NJ are NOT allowed to carry JHP ammo even under LEOSA.
I'm a PA LEO and qualify retired LEO's under LEOSA. I also make frequent trips to NJ, where the JHP has been a hard pill for the retired NJ LEO's to swallow. They've tried writing to the powers that be to address their situation, but for the most part they have been ignored.
JHP is allowed to be carried in NJ under the provisions of LEOSA by out-of-state LEO's and qualified retired LEO's NOT living in NJ. Retired LEO's living in NJ are NOT allowed to carry JHP ammo even under LEOSA.
I'm a PA LEO and qualify retired LEO's under LEOSA. I also make frequent trips to NJ, where the JHP has been a hard pill for the retired NJ LEO's to swallow. They've tried writing to the powers that be to address their situation, but for the most part they have been ignored.
scaatylobo
Member
I believe
I also believe that if you left the [police ] service with a disability,BUT under good standing otherwise = you can qual for HR218 [ as most of us refer to LEOSA ] with less than 10 years service.
I qual with my agency every year and get that fact put on my new police I.D. card ,so I am gtg in all 50 states.
I also believe that if you left the [police ] service with a disability,BUT under good standing otherwise = you can qual for HR218 [ as most of us refer to LEOSA ] with less than 10 years service.
I qual with my agency every year and get that fact put on my new police I.D. card ,so I am gtg in all 50 states.
Speedo66
Member
I'm a retired officer carrying under LEOSA, formerly known as HR218 before it was amended. I see a few misinterpretations above, so I'll go over some of them.
As far as what you must possess to carry, it's a retired ID card, and a certificate by a certified police instructor in the state you are currently living in stating you have qualified with a firearm according to the standards of active police in that state. He does not have to be a member of your old dept, or any dept.
As far as weapon, it does not have to be the same weapon you retired with, just the same "type", i.e., semi-auto or revolver, or both, and should state so on the requal card you must carry. You must requalify every year.
The newer law, LEOSA, also changed the law to allow you to carry any ammo legal under federal law, so hollow point ammo in any state, yes, even NJ. I have never heard of any restrictions on what legal weapon you can carry, other than it being a handgun, either SA or revolver. The federal law supersedes any state or local law and states so.
The act allows you to carry in any state, but you must adhere to the same laws as citizens licensed in that state, not LE personnel. So if private citizens can't carry in say a highway rest stop or bar, than neither can retired officers under LEOSA. The same rules apply to active officers traveling in other states off duty.
Here is a copy of the original bill, HR 218 http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-108hr218enr/pdf/BILLS-108hr218enr.pdf
Here is a copy of the amended bill, LEOSA: http://le.nra.org/leosa.aspx
Here is the FOP site with FAQ's http://www.fop.net/legislative/issues/hr218/hr218faq.pdf
As far as what you must possess to carry, it's a retired ID card, and a certificate by a certified police instructor in the state you are currently living in stating you have qualified with a firearm according to the standards of active police in that state. He does not have to be a member of your old dept, or any dept.
As far as weapon, it does not have to be the same weapon you retired with, just the same "type", i.e., semi-auto or revolver, or both, and should state so on the requal card you must carry. You must requalify every year.
The newer law, LEOSA, also changed the law to allow you to carry any ammo legal under federal law, so hollow point ammo in any state, yes, even NJ. I have never heard of any restrictions on what legal weapon you can carry, other than it being a handgun, either SA or revolver. The federal law supersedes any state or local law and states so.
The act allows you to carry in any state, but you must adhere to the same laws as citizens licensed in that state, not LE personnel. So if private citizens can't carry in say a highway rest stop or bar, than neither can retired officers under LEOSA. The same rules apply to active officers traveling in other states off duty.
Here is a copy of the original bill, HR 218 http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-108hr218enr/pdf/BILLS-108hr218enr.pdf
Here is a copy of the amended bill, LEOSA: http://le.nra.org/leosa.aspx
Here is the FOP site with FAQ's http://www.fop.net/legislative/issues/hr218/hr218faq.pdf
My comments in red-
RustyShackelford
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LEOSA SOPs....
I'm going to check the CT public safety website. The last I checked they were adamant about not allowing CT retired officers to carry SAOs. Id agree & not dispute an out of state retiree/medical retired officers-agents carrying a 1911 model or hi-power.
From sources I've seen in the recent past too, a retiree or LEOSA member couldn't have arrests or convictions/criminal histories(DWI, domestic violence, etc) then renew-requal LEOSA. I'm not a retired LE officer so I don't have a union rep or shop steward to check with.
EDIT: I looked over DESPP site and yes SAO/single action pistols are now allowed for LEOSA. Single action revolvers are not allowed. This seems more streamlined & straight forward since I last check(early 2014).
I'm going to check the CT public safety website. The last I checked they were adamant about not allowing CT retired officers to carry SAOs. Id agree & not dispute an out of state retiree/medical retired officers-agents carrying a 1911 model or hi-power.
From sources I've seen in the recent past too, a retiree or LEOSA member couldn't have arrests or convictions/criminal histories(DWI, domestic violence, etc) then renew-requal LEOSA. I'm not a retired LE officer so I don't have a union rep or shop steward to check with.
EDIT: I looked over DESPP site and yes SAO/single action pistols are now allowed for LEOSA. Single action revolvers are not allowed. This seems more streamlined & straight forward since I last check(early 2014).
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scaatylobo
Member
@speedo 66
Your quoted here.
"The act allows you to carry in any state, but you must adhere to the same laws as citizens licensed in that state, not LE personnel. So if private citizens can't carry in say a highway rest stop or bar, than neither can retired officers under LEOSA. The same rules apply to active officers traveling in other states off duty"
The ruling by the courts in the shooting in Sturgis by an offduty from another state,proved your wrong on the above.
The state tried VERY hard to charge that officer with possession in a bar ,against state law.
he was not charged after the federal law was quoted and he was under HR218 so free to carry ---- period.
I followed that case as it was a good example of how and what would happen IF DPF use was required by an LEO in another state and subject to different laws.
Just a point that I found.
Biggest problem with the whole law is that it is NOT clear and open to MANY misunderstandings.
Your quoted here.
"The act allows you to carry in any state, but you must adhere to the same laws as citizens licensed in that state, not LE personnel. So if private citizens can't carry in say a highway rest stop or bar, than neither can retired officers under LEOSA. The same rules apply to active officers traveling in other states off duty"
The ruling by the courts in the shooting in Sturgis by an offduty from another state,proved your wrong on the above.
The state tried VERY hard to charge that officer with possession in a bar ,against state law.
he was not charged after the federal law was quoted and he was under HR218 so free to carry ---- period.
I followed that case as it was a good example of how and what would happen IF DPF use was required by an LEO in another state and subject to different laws.
Just a point that I found.
Biggest problem with the whole law is that it is NOT clear and open to MANY misunderstandings.
RustyShackelford
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legal precedent....
I agree with the last post.
I've read of legal cases in different locations where a sworn LE or military member/retiree claimed LEOSA status but got into a jam with a concealed gun.
One was a USCG member who took it to a federal appeals court.
I think the 2013 revision signed into law by President Obama was meant to clarify some of the problems.
In the late 2000s when I went to a armed security re-qual I met a NYPD retiree who was unaware of the new LEOSA. She told me she'd look into it since she retired & re-located but had not yet got a CCW.
I agree with the last post.
I've read of legal cases in different locations where a sworn LE or military member/retiree claimed LEOSA status but got into a jam with a concealed gun.
One was a USCG member who took it to a federal appeals court.
I think the 2013 revision signed into law by President Obama was meant to clarify some of the problems.
In the late 2000s when I went to a armed security re-qual I met a NYPD retiree who was unaware of the new LEOSA. She told me she'd look into it since she retired & re-located but had not yet got a CCW.
Speedo66
Member
You're absolutely correct, I remember that Sturgis case now. If the state you're in makes it illegal to drink in a bar and carry, like say OH does, perhaps you might have a problem. Don't recall if those guys had been drinking, but being intoxicated is a lose your rights no no under LEOSA.
The thing is, as those guys in Sturgis found out, is that local law enforcement will arrest you if they feel you're not complying. You will suffer an arrest, possible short time in a lockup, and a whole lot of expense in legal fees until a judge hopefully sees it your way. No guarantee he will, so an appeal, and further expense on your part may be necessary.
You entire life and that of your family will be disrupted by fear and possible money problems. Personally, it's not worth the drama, I'd just try and follow the same local laws as other licensed citizens when I travel. You may be right, but proving it could turn out to be a nightmare.
I've come across active police officers who've never heard of LEOSA, and some who just don't know or understand the provisions. Trying to explain to them about the Sturgis ruling may not work to prevent an arrest.
The thing is, as those guys in Sturgis found out, is that local law enforcement will arrest you if they feel you're not complying. You will suffer an arrest, possible short time in a lockup, and a whole lot of expense in legal fees until a judge hopefully sees it your way. No guarantee he will, so an appeal, and further expense on your part may be necessary.
You entire life and that of your family will be disrupted by fear and possible money problems. Personally, it's not worth the drama, I'd just try and follow the same local laws as other licensed citizens when I travel. You may be right, but proving it could turn out to be a nightmare.
I've come across active police officers who've never heard of LEOSA, and some who just don't know or understand the provisions. Trying to explain to them about the Sturgis ruling may not work to prevent an arrest.
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RustyShackelford
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Problems with training/enforcement.....
The last post brings up a great point.
Continued education or updated training(s) vary from state to state or even city to city.
My state quit funding formal training/in service classes between the state police certification/training commission & the Div of Licensing(which regulates the CCW/security/PIs-investigations/towing-Reposession).
I was at the state panel meeting in 2009 when this point was made.
If new sworn LE officers or state certified LE(deputy/marshal/constable/police officer/trooper/special agent) are not given these classes or updated laws then they can't or won't, , properly enforce them.
The last post brings up a great point.
Continued education or updated training(s) vary from state to state or even city to city.
My state quit funding formal training/in service classes between the state police certification/training commission & the Div of Licensing(which regulates the CCW/security/PIs-investigations/towing-Reposession).
I was at the state panel meeting in 2009 when this point was made.
If new sworn LE officers or state certified LE(deputy/marshal/constable/police officer/trooper/special agent) are not given these classes or updated laws then they can't or won't,
, properly enforce them.
Lucky Derby
Member
This whole mess could simply be avoided if the whole country followed The Constitution, then LEO status would not matter one bit.
Not helpful, I know, but my take on it none-the-less.
Not helpful, I know, but my take on it none-the-less.
Speedo66
Member
Which is why I carry a copy of LEOSA in the glove compartments of my cars.The last post brings up a great point.
Continued education or updated training(s) vary from state to state or even city to city.
My state quit funding formal training/in service classes between the state police certification/training commission & the Div of Licensing(which regulates the CCW/security/PIs-investigations/towing-Reposession).
I was at the state panel meeting in 2009 when this point was made.
If new sworn LE officers or state certified LE(deputy/marshal/constable/police officer/trooper/special agent) are not given these classes or updated laws then they can't or won't,
lemaymiami
Member
Since my retirement from law enforcement precedes LEOSA (I retired from police work in 1995...) I've always relied on my state's ccw permit (it was part of my agency's retirement "package" all those years ago). Licensed in Florida and not planning on traveling further away than adjoining states I've been happy with being a private citizen and not relying at all on LEOSA or any contact at all with police agencies. With me it's kind of a moot point since although I've renewed it every five years - I have yet to actually carry concealed even one day since 1995... If there's any particular advantage to carrying under LEOSA as opposed to a simple state license I'd be glad to hear about it.
scaatylobo
Member
@lemaymiami
The advantage to LEOSA carry is 1 = you are qualled and therefore can PROVE you are as qualified as any LEO to use your firearm.
2 = you can carry in all 50 states and are backed by the Federal Govt [ even if they don't want to ].
3 = You will carry an I.D. that states you are qualified in all 50 states under LEOSA,that alone might cause a hesitation in an arrest situation [ assuming it was a good shoot ].
I too carry a copy of the LEOSA law with me whenever I travel.
And you are one of the few allowed to CCW in NYC under LEOSA ,a "right" that is hard to come by in that city.
A good thing to have even if your driving through.
The advantage to LEOSA carry is 1 = you are qualled and therefore can PROVE you are as qualified as any LEO to use your firearm.
2 = you can carry in all 50 states and are backed by the Federal Govt [ even if they don't want to ].
3 = You will carry an I.D. that states you are qualified in all 50 states under LEOSA,that alone might cause a hesitation in an arrest situation [ assuming it was a good shoot ].
I too carry a copy of the LEOSA law with me whenever I travel.
And you are one of the few allowed to CCW in NYC under LEOSA ,a "right" that is hard to come by in that city.
A good thing to have even if your driving through.
RustyShackelford
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LEOSA; large city exempts?....
I read the last few posts.
The last I heard LEOSA was not valid in cities or municipal areas that chose not to allow it(not even for their own retired LE officers). Places like Los Angeles, New York City, Chicago, Washington DC. If I were a LEOSA member or had plans to retire soon(in a agency or military occupation that met the requirements) Id look to get the latest details or requirements.
There seems to be a wide & varying interpation of what LEOSA is & how it's meant to be used.
I'd add that in my earlier post when I wrote "fit for duty" I meant the retiree or officer/trooper/agent who was medical retired-disabled didn't have disqualifying factors like medications or restraining orders/PFAs/criminal convictions.
I would not think arrests or criminal histories after a officer retires would allow them to keep using the LEOSA status but Id have to read over the entire federal law.
I read the last few posts.
The last I heard LEOSA was not valid in cities or municipal areas that chose not to allow it(not even for their own retired LE officers). Places like Los Angeles, New York City, Chicago, Washington DC. If I were a LEOSA member or had plans to retire soon(in a agency or military occupation that met the requirements) Id look to get the latest details or requirements.
There seems to be a wide & varying interpation of what LEOSA is & how it's meant to be used.
I'd add that in my earlier post when I wrote "fit for duty" I meant the retiree or officer/trooper/agent who was medical retired-disabled didn't have disqualifying factors like medications or restraining orders/PFAs/criminal convictions.
I would not think arrests or criminal histories after a officer retires would allow them to keep using the LEOSA status but Id have to read over the entire federal law.
Rusty, you are wrong. Municipalities can't opt out of LEOSA. It's federal law. Applies everywhere in the US. Territories and possessions included.
When LEOSA first came Ray Kelly (the PC) put out some cumbersome procedures to be followed by NYPD to verify if someone carrying under LEOSA was qualified. They didn't last long.
When LEOSA first came Ray Kelly (the PC) put out some cumbersome procedures to be followed by NYPD to verify if someone carrying under LEOSA was qualified. They didn't last long.
I'm confused about what I was told in NJ as far as qualifying as a retired LEO.
A firearms guy is telling me that I have to qualify under two SEPARATE "day" courses and two separate "night" courses for a total of 4 qualification rounds during one certification (so that would be EIGHT qualification rounds annually)
He mentioned something about having to shoot both the FBI course and the NJ AG course which are separate qualifications/directions.
Does anyone here have any info on this.
Thanks.
A firearms guy is telling me that I have to qualify under two SEPARATE "day" courses and two separate "night" courses for a total of 4 qualification rounds during one certification (so that would be EIGHT qualification rounds annually)
He mentioned something about having to shoot both the FBI course and the NJ AG course which are separate qualifications/directions.
Does anyone here have any info on this.
Thanks.
RustyShackelford
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Clarifying....
I just want to clear up a few points;
Im not against LEOSA. If retired or qualified officers/agents/deputies/MPs/etc want to apply for or use it, have at it!
I would too if I met the standards & requirements.
As for the major cities issue, Id say; that's great but Id hope the major LE trade organizations like NOBLE, IACP, FoP, FLEOA(Federal Law Enforcement Officers Assoc) can explain or share these new federal laws/standards with the members.
I just want to clear up a few points;
Im not against LEOSA. If retired or qualified officers/agents/deputies/MPs/etc want to apply for or use it, have at it!
I would too if I met the standards & requirements.
As for the major cities issue, Id say; that's great but Id hope the major LE trade organizations like NOBLE, IACP, FoP, FLEOA(Federal Law Enforcement Officers Assoc) can explain or share these new federal laws/standards with the members.
Steve in PA
Member
That is correct, LEOSA is a Federal Law and there is nothing any city, town, borough, etc can do about it. It is legal in every state, period.
And yes, NJ and probably some other states make it very difficult for retired LEO's to qualify under LEOSA. I don't know about them having to shoot the FBI course,
And yes, NJ and probably some other states make it very difficult for retired LEO's to qualify under LEOSA. I don't know about them having to shoot the FBI course,
Another example of a well intended law that was amended and altered to the point of being nearly useless. Like those carry permit laws that someone called "anti-gravity" laws because they require the applicant to be able to hover six feet off the ground in order to get the permit.
Jim
Jim
Speedo66
Member
That's absolutely not true. The amendments gave more rights, not less. It included more officers and agencies, not less. You have to meet the same state training requirements for active officers, nothing more.
This happens to be one Federal law that seems to be working as intended.
As far as cities and states not allowing it, not true, they have no choice. The law tells them in black and white, as clear as a bell, that this Federal law supersedes theirs, even as to which ammo can be carried.
Even HI, which is just as tough or tougher than NYC for getting a carry permit, acknowledges LEOSA. They require you to make contact with them within a certain amount of days, but do not attempt to deny it.
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