Lawyers, Guns and Money (Parker Case)

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Bubbles

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Lawyers, Guns and Money

Interesting take on the Parker case and potential rulings by the USSC from a Harvard Law School newsletter. I did note two glaring errors in it, though. First, Froman is the former NRA President. Second, the author gave credit for bringing the case forward and funding it to the NRA, not to the Cato Institute and Levy.

Lawyers, Guns and Money
This time, the Supreme Court may have to decide what the Second Amendment means. But how much will really change?
By Elaine McArdle

Michelle Thompson “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”
U.S. Constitution, Amendment II

Earlier this year, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit struck down the District of Columbia’s stringent gun-control regulations, ruling squarely that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to bear arms.

In the cultural and legal battle over gun control, the decision was the proverbial shot heard ’round the world.

The ruling—in Parker v. District of Columbia—marked the first time a gun law has been found unconstitutional based on the Second Amendment, and it set up a direct conflict among the circuits. Nine federal appeals courts around the nation have adopted the view that the amendment guarantees only the collective right of organized state militias to bear arms, not an individual’s right. (A 5th Circuit panel found that individuals have gun rights but upheld the regulation in question, so both sides claim that ruling as a victory.)

In May, when the full D.C. Circuit Court refused to grant a rehearing en banc, the stage seemed set for a showdown in the Supreme Court, which has thus far managed to dodge the question of whether the Second Amendment guarantees an individual’s right to bear arms.

According to HLS Professor Mark Tushnet, author of “Out of Range: Why the Constitution Can’t End the Battle Over Guns” (Oxford University Press, 2007), earlier petitions were cluttered by issues that allowed the Court to decline review or avoid the Second Amendment question. But Parker “is more straightforward,” Tushnet says, and the Court will have a tougher time avoiding the issue.

If Parker is the long-awaited “clean” case, one reason may be that lawyers for the National Rifle Association—who helped steer the legal strategy of the plaintiffs and backed them financially—have learned from earlier defeats, and crafted the case to maximize the chances of Supreme Court review. For one thing, it is a civil case, not a criminal one, and the six plaintiffs, in the words of NRA President Sandra Froman ’74, are “ordinary people whose lives are impacted by not having the right to protect themselves.” They include a woman who lives in a high-crime area and has been threatened by drug dealers, a gay man assaulted because of his sexual orientation and a special police officer for the Federal Judicial Center.

In addition, the laws challenged in Parker are among the most stringent in the nation: Handguns cannot be registered in the district; those registered before a 1976 ban cannot be carried from one room to another without a license; and any firearm in a home must be kept unloaded and either locked or disassembled.

Also important, says Tushnet, is the fact that because Parker emanates from the District of Columbia, where only federal law applies, it doesn’t involve the overlaying question of whether the Second Amendment applies to a state by way of the 14th Amendment—a question that clouded an earlier case involving one city’s complete ban on handgun possession. He adds that a number of states urged the Court not to take that case, and the solicitor general did the same in another one.

Pro-gun activists like Froman are confident that the Court will hear an appeal by the district in Parker, and they say that they couldn’t have gotten this far without help from an unlikely quarter: liberal law professors. In the past 20 years, several prominent legal scholars known for liberal views, including Professor Laurence Tribe ’66, have come to believe that the Second Amendment supports the individual-rights view. In the 2000 edition of his treatise “American Constitutional Law,” Tribe broke from the 1978 and 1988 editions by endorsing that view. Other liberal professors, including Akhil Reed Amar at Yale Law School and Sanford Levinson at the University of Texas at Austin, agree.

“My conclusion came as something of a surprise to me, and an unwelcome surprise,” Tribe said in a recent New York Times interview. “I have always supported as a matter of policy very comprehensive gun control.”

Froman says the fact that Tribe and others reversed their interpretation in recent years has had enormous influence. Indeed, the majority opinion in Parker, written by Judge Laurence H. Silberman ’61, referred specifically to Tribe’s revised conclusion.

The 27 words of the Second Amendment may be the most hotly contested in the Constitution. Gun-control advocates and opponents read its tortured syntax entirely differently. Each side resorts to what Tushnet calls “a simplified version of constitutional analysis” to support its viewpoint, looking solely at the wording of the amendment and what the language meant in 1791 rather than at whether society has changed in the meantime and what judicial precedents offer guidance. In “virtually no other area in constitutional law” is analysis done that way, he says, although he’s not sure why.

“There’s very little guidance on what the actual meaning of the Second Amendment is,” says Froman, a Tucson lawyer who was interviewed by the Bulletin when she returned to HLS in early April to speak on a panel. “The courts have talked a lot about the Second Amendment but have always been nibbling around the periphery. There’s never really been ‘Let’s explain and elaborate on what it means.’”

For Anthony A. Williams ’87, who served as mayor of the District of Columbia from 1999 until earlier this year and vigorously enforced the district’s gun laws during his tenure, the meaning of the amendment is unambiguous, no matter what interpretive theory is used. “Let’s take [Justice Antonin] Scalia’s approach,” he says. “I think the framers’ intent was to see to it that [through] militias, states as sovereign entities had a right to arm themselves. To me, it’s not about individuals—it’s about groups.”

But Froman firmly reaches the opposite conclusion: “A lot of people say that the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment—the words ‘A well regulated militia …’— limits the active clause pertaining to bearing arms. They want to say that means you can only exercise the right to keep and bear arms as part of a militia, meaning as part of the National Guard, forgetting that the National Guard didn’t exist then.”

“Remember,” Froman adds, “the Second Amendment guarantees a right—it does not confer a right. It’s God-given. It’s natural. The right of self-survival is a basic instinct of any organism.” The Constitution “acknowledges that.”

Tushnet believes that if the Court grants certiorari, it will ultimately overturn the decision of the D.C. panel. “My gut feeling is that there are not five votes to say the individual-rights position is correct,” he says. “[Justice Anthony] Kennedy comes from a segment of the Republican Party that is not rabidly pro-gun rights and indeed probably is sympathetic to hunters but not terribly sympathetic to handgun owners. Then the standard liberals will probably say ‘collective rights.’”

But Tribe is less confident of that prediction. Should the case reach the Supreme Court, he told The New York Times, “there’s a really quite decent chance that it will be affirmed.”

If that happens, Tushnet says, it is unlikely to end all gun regulation, because the Court would probably tailor its decision narrowly to reach consensus. The three-judge panel in Parker struck down only D.C.’s tight laws. “Once you recognize [gun ownership] as an individual right, then the work shifts to figuring out what type of regulation is permissible,” he says.

Tushnet says the gun-control debate is an intractable one in which neither side will move, and a constitutional “answer” from the Supreme Court will be something of a nonstarter. Like the arguments over abortion and stem-cell research, he says, the argument over guns is in truth another battle in the culture wars and cannot be solved by constitutional analysis because neither side can be persuaded.

No gun-control strategy with any chance of surviving the political process would have a significant effect on overall gun violence or crime, Tushnet believes. To say so publicly would be the boldest and most honest stand that a major politician or candidate could take, he adds.

The tragic shootings on the campus of Virginia Tech seem to have changed no one’s position: “People responded to it in exactly the way you would expect,” Tushnet says. Supporters of gun control sought stricter laws and better enforcement, and the NRA advocated that teachers and others be armed to protect themselves.

Activists on both sides bear out that observation. Williams believes that the district’s gun laws were having a demonstrable effect on gun-related violence. “When I started as mayor, we had well over 200 homicides a year,” he says. “We brought that down to below 160, so we made serious inroads in reducing violent crime; but still, in many neighborhoods, the situation is horrific.”

Says Froman: “Statistically, the parts of the country with the greatest number of firearms have the lowest rates of violent crime with guns. It’s easy to understand why. Let’s say there were 30 people in this room, and this was a state that allowed people to carry concealed weapons for self-defense, and a criminal walked in. At least half the people in the room would draw down on the criminal. That would be the end of it.”

Froman had nothing to do with guns until, some 25 years ago, someone tried to break into her Los Angeles home. “I was terrified,” she says. “It was a real epiphany for me, for someone who had never been a victim of crime, who never thought I needed to protect myself.” The next day, she walked into a gun shop to purchase a weapon. She has been a staunch gun advocate ever since.

Does Froman ever worry about repercussions, given that she’s at the center of such a heated issue? “I live in a very rural area, at the end of a long driveway,” she says. “People ask me, ‘Don’t you get scared?’ I say, ‘Are you kidding? I have a clear shot all the way to the road.’”
 
Two points:

1.
No gun-control strategy with any chance of surviving the political process would have a significant effect on overall gun violence or crime, Tushnet believes. To say so publicly would be the boldest and most honest stand that a major politician or candidate could take, he adds.

2.
“Once you recognize [gun ownership] as an individual right, then the work shifts to figuring out what type of regulation is permissible,” Tushnet says.

That is the thing...how can you rationalize what reasonable is when "shall not infringe" is part of the equation?
 
Quote:
“Once you recognize [gun ownership] as an individual right, then the work shifts to figuring out what type of regulation is permissible,” Tushnet says.

Frankly, that is one aspect of a positive Supreme Court decision in Parker that would scare me. Even if the Court made a narrow ruling, there would be gun-rights activists out there who would immediately press for machineguns, destructive devices and other types of weaponry. The problem is that if they haven't first changed the underlying culture that fears these firearms, they are going to lose that battle and create precedent that will be a problem even if they are successful in the cultural wars at some later date.

That is the thing...how can you rationalize what reasonable is when "shall not infringe" is part of the equation?

The people who wrote the Constitution didn't intend to arm criminals, the mentally ill, or slaves when they wrote it. Isn't that an infringement by the interpretation you give? There isn't one of the Bill of Rights that isn't limited in some way... free exercise of religion doesn't mean you can sacrifice virgins in the volcano.

Regardless of whether you agree with that position, the larger problem is that this view is not mainstream - even among gun owners. Just being non-mainstream doesn't make you wrong; but it does make for a very high probability you are going to lose your case when judges and juries chosen by the mainstream determine your fate. That means if you push ahead of the curve on popular support, you run the real risk of creating bad precedent that actually slows your progress.
 
There isn't one of the Bill of Rights that isn't limited in some way...
That's true for all but the Second Amendment. The mere keeping and/or bearing of arms is purely passive and poses no threat to anyone else's rights.

The only limits upon individuals with arms that would be constitutional would be how those arms are used. But then, that has nothing to do with "Keep and Bear", does it. Therein lies the difference between the Second Amendment and all the others.


... free exercise of religion doesn't mean you can sacrifice virgins in the volcano.
Dang, there goes the weekend plans!

Woody
 
Woody got that one dead on. 2A rights protect the right to own arms, not the right to do harm with them. That is one of the beauties of the Second Amendment. It is in many ways the simplest and most straight forward of any concept covered in our Constitution. It should be amazing that such a
simple and straight forward right can be so twisted, tortured and obfuscated by the laws and rulings of the legal beagles.
 
ow can you rationalize what reasonable is when "shall not infringe" is part of the equation?

The same way you figure out what's reasonable when "shall make no law ... abridging" is part of the equation. The question is, does the particular law infringe the right to keep and bear arms?

The only limits upon individuals with arms that would be constitutional would be how those arms are used. But then, that has nothing to do with "Keep and Bear", does it.

That would be a great interpretation, but I don't hold out much hope that we'll get it.
 
Sorry, Bart. I agree with Woody here. Also, I can't accept without support:
The people who wrote the Constitution didn't intend to arm criminals, the mentally ill, or slaves when they wrote it.

The "article" of the OP is frought with bias and inaccuracies. One NRA mistake has already been noted. There are others, too.
Like the arguments over abortion and stem-cell research, he says, the argument over guns is in truth another battle in the culture wars and cannot be solved by constitutional analysis because neither side can be persuaded.
Big difference: The Constitution does not mention abortion, stem cell, or even privacy. The right of the people to KABA is explicit.
 
Remember all the fervent panic, the predictions of doom and gloom, the chaos that was predicted if people were "allowed" to carry guns just a few short years ago? Well, all that never came to pass and now there is but little of all those predictions spoken of any more. People have learned there is no danger in the mere keeping and bearing of arms, and, actually, good does happen because arms are readily available. It'll have to be that way with machine guns, RPG's and the like.

We'll have to take those parts of our right back, like we did with concealed carry, and allow the "populace" to become accustomed to their presence and innocuousness. If we wait for the "populace" to become accustomed to the idea of it first, it'll never happen. We had to fight for concealed carry, we'll have to fight for the rest.

Naturally, I'd much rather Congress recognize the right and for the Court to enforce it when Congress fails, but taking back a piece at a time is taking that bitter pill with a teaspoon of sugar. Sooner or later, though, we will have to take those steps to completely clear the RKBA of infringements. Therefore, some of us must push for the complete unfettering of the right and it should be the ultimate goal of us all. After all, it's only right, is it not?

Woody
 
Henry Bowman said:
Sorry, Bart. I agree with Woody here. Also, I can't accept without support...

"To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws." - John Adams.

Certainly Adams was an ardent Federalist and judging by his support of the Sedition Acts, not exactly one for a constructionist interpretation of the Constitution, even though he helped construct it. I think it does show though that the right to bear arms was a right intended primarily for peaceable citizens - and this did not include everyone.

I think you also have to look at English common law because this is the precursor that much of our Constitutition was derived from. Our forefathers expanded the class of people who enjoyed rights considerably; but it is hard to imagine that they weren't informed by customs and restrictions that had been around for hundreds of years.

Let's look at the militia that the Second Amendment was meant to enable (from the Militia Act of 1792):

"each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia"

I think that is a pretty good description of who the founders had in mind when they envisioned a right to bear arms - free, able-bodied, and white. Not criminals, not the mentally ill, not non-whites. Today we would extend those rights to non-whites; but on the other side we ceremonially execute the citizenship of felons where we used to execute the felon (and fewer crimes were felonies). I don't think anyone would dispute that we do not have the same criminal justice system that was in use at the time of the Constitution and I think you will see problems with applying the "after prison" version of that justice system if you aren't applying the "in prison" part of it as well.

woodcdi said:
We'll have to take those parts of our right back, like we did with concealed carry, and allow the "populace" to become accustomed to their presence and innocuousness.

Which was my primary point, even if you believe the Second Amendment is an absolute right (which I do not believe). However, that isn't what will happen... somebody is going to push for machineguns and RPGs within a year of a positive ruling. As sure as I am typing this now, somebody out there will have to have it all or nothing and will press ahead with a badly planned case that will create bad precedent. The only question will be how far the bad precedent rises. If it happens now without a Supreme Court ruling (and in circuits with adverse precedent), you can bet that it won't slow down with a good ruling on Parker.
 
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RB said -- Somebody is going to push for machineguns and RPGs within a year of a positive ruling. As sure as I am typing this now, somebody out there will have to have it all or nothing and will press ahead with a badly planned case that will create bad precedent.

The funny thing about this very true statement is that it is the 1986 law closing the machine gun registry that is most directly analogous to the DC handgun "ban" (they also closed their registry). Maybe we should be the "deciderers" and get some clean cases in the works in case we actually get a somewhat positive ruling on the 2a.
 
I doubt we'll get an overturning of the GCA or NFA out of a favorable decision, but we may be able to get a reopening of the MG registry. Things like the near zero cases of crimes committed with NFA MGs help the case from a public view.
 
I doubt we'll get an overturning of the GCA or NFA out of a favorable decision, but we may be able to get a reopening of the MG registry. Things like the near zero cases of crimes committed with NFA MGs help the case from a public view

This is argument and will instantly be used against you by Antis.

If you argue that the virtual non-exsistence of crimes committed by NFA MGs shows that they are safe for society, a smart Anti will point out that the reason that they're rarely used is because they're so regulated and expensive.

They will argue that if all guns required the "hoops" of NFA MGs, then we'd have much less violent crime committed with firearms.
 
They will argue that if all guns required the "hoops" of NFA MGs, then we'd have much less violent crime committed with firearms.

Well, then: Reopen the registry for machine guns if these laws "work so well". Shove it back in their faces! Then we can work from that point; standing on our feet in stead of groveling on our knees.

Woody

"I pledge allegiance to the rights that made and keep me free. I will preserve and defend those rights for all who live in this Union, founded on the belief and principles that those rights are inalienable and essential to the pursuit and preservation of life, liberty, and happiness." B.E.Wood
 
Maybe we should be the "deciderers" and get some clean cases in the works in case we actually get a somewhat positive ruling on the 2a.

So who is the perfect 922(o) plaintiff? Not from a legal perspective so much; but who is a person that the public will go "Well that doesn't make any sense. Why would you want to disarm her?" Who is a person that even the antis would be afraid to speak against?
 
In my haste last night, I chose not to add that slaves (and all blacks) were not considered or treated as human. So "human rights" did not apply to them (at that time). The quote says noting of criminals, but I suspect that the attitude was to punish the criminal acts rather than the passive possession of arms. a jailed white man was not "free" until released. The fact that our criminal justice or penal system is flawed is no justification to make laws that infringe rights broadly. "fixing" what is actually broken would be both expensive and take a great deal of persistence (something our current society is short on). Still, that is why we have a Constutution that is difficult to revise (officially) and is not supposed to be subject to the whim of a lazy majority.

Who is a person that even the antis would be afraid to speak against?
Probably no one at this time. The antis are not honorable in their intentions and feel no shame. The MSM is their sympathetic mouthpiece. The cilvil rights movement of the '50s, '60s, and '70s would not have been as successful as it was without the relentless help of the MSM.
 
The quote says noting of criminals, but I suspect that the attitude was to punish the criminal acts rather than the passive possession of arms. a jailed white man was not "free" until released.

Yes, that is a problem with a direct analogue. We release criminals who shouldn't be free and imprison people who probably shouldn't be in prison. The founders didn't have that issue because they didn't use the same crippled justice system we use.

Of course, during the time of the Constitution, a lot of people who were "free" after their crime were probably not welcome in the places they had lived. I suspect more than a few were run out of town. One difference between then and now is that their criminal record did not follow them everywhere they went. They could reinvent themselves and reform or not reform and eventually justice might catch up to them once and for all. The country was also better about not passing laws it couldn't possibly enforce then IMO. I think this plays a role in why recidivism as a problem was not more widely recognized then. I also think it explains why processes that worked in that time may not be successful today when there is nowhere to go to escape foolish mistakes of the past.

The end result though is that there a lot of people that we can identify who have demonstrated by their own past actions that they lack the judgment to use firearms responsibly; but that we still allow to run freely amongst us. We know that a certain percentage of them are likely to use violence again. We just don't know which ones. At what percentage do we say that the likelihood is great enough that you should either not be set free or be set free with limited rights? I don't see any easy answers there and I don't think the world would end if convicted felons who had served their time regained their firearm rights (primarily because most of them aren't violent and their crimes shouldn't be felonies). At the same time though, I think it is foolish to implement that without changing the system we have in place. If we don't first address the problem with the system, all we will get out of it is more gun violence that will be used against all of our rights ultimately. If we can correct the system that allows violent felons to run free amongst us, that would go a long way in solving our other problems.

In fact, historically, the higher propensity for violence is what killed the whole relief from disability program to begin with. The antis were able to successfully point to people who had received relief from the ATF and then went on to commit gun violence again. They were able to do it with enough success that few Congressman were willing to take the chance of funding the program, especially for constituents who can't vote.

Probably no one at this time. The antis are not honorable in their intentions and feel no shame. The MSM is their sympathetic mouthpiece.

Yes, I cannot think of anyone either; and I don't doubt that the antis would say something regardless; but I think when they speak out against plaintiffs like those in the Parker case, they hurt themselves. You notice that few MSM stories that were hostile to Parker spent much time discussing the plaintiffs as human beings?
 
What scares me is that somebody is going to lose if this goes to SCOTUS.
There's no middle ground.
Talk about betting the ranch.
I don't know who's going to lose but one side or the other is.

AFS
 
AFS: The Supremes cam be masters of "middle ground" when they want to be. They can make their holding so fact specific that it has little applicability elsewhere and even say that they are not deciding certain issues or questions while affiming or reversing a specific case.

When freedom wins, nobody loses. :)

Bart, this is an imperfect analogy, but Paris Hilton has demonstrated by her own past actions that she lacks the judgment to use automobiles (or alcohol) responsibly. Yet even though her DL is suspended for a while, it will be restored. She remains allowed to own/buy/possess vehicles and even use alcohol following her conviction and incarceration.

We have to overcome the emotional baggage attached to 2A freedom issues.
 
What scares me is that somebody is going to lose if this goes to SCOTUS.
There's no middle ground.
Talk about betting the ranch.
I don't know who's going to lose but one side or the other is.

AFS

I have felt this way on and off as well, however some who argue for the case have pointed out some things:

Considering it's the position of the Anti's and the MSM that there is no "individual right to KABA" in the Second Amendment, we have nothing to lose now. And also that the BATFE, Dept. of the Treasury with the '68 GCA's language of "Sporting Purposes" does not recognize the individual right to KABA either.

And if we did lose, it would galvanize the gun community to fight in the legislature even harder, where we've been making all of our gains to date, and taken most of our losses ever since the '34 NFA anyway.

So proponents of the Parker case make a good argument that while a win would help us, a loss would change nothing. I'm not so sure, I still worry, but it's compelling logic. The analogy that pro-Parker people make is that Roe V. Wade, instead of leaving pro-life people defeated "forever", it became a rallying point for the movement which has made some headway at the state and federal level to restrict abortion over the past few years. (keep on-topic please, just an example of SCOTUS cases and pro/anti movements)

So while a Parker loss would leave us status quo, save for the propaganda value to anti-gunners, and could make pro-RKBA fight harder at the legislative level, a Parker win would be much more difficult for the anti's to use to rally their base or challenge in court ever again. Gun owners at least have standing in court because they can currently claim a right is being denied in an individual and specific instance. Granted with a Parker loss, we'd lose that, but in pragmatic terms all the other circuits, except for a lukewarm 5th circuit, already deny the individual right to KABA right now.

After a Parker win, anti-gunners trying to find standing to ever challenge it on the basis of "being free from guns" in the general sense is a lot more difficult to take to court in the first place.
 
When did convicted felons first lose their right to keep and bear arms following release? i.e., when did "felon in possession of a gun" become a crime in its own right?

That was part of the Gun Control Act of 1968. Prior to then it was pretty much "anything goes" - mail-order sales, no FFL's required for interstate transfers, etc.
 
If you believe, "We shouldn't have a 2A SCOTUS case because we might lose" just chop your guns up now.

If you fight a battle, you may lose. If you refuse to fight the enemy, you by definition get overrun.

I've said before, and I'll say again and again, a few lawyers, the kind who CLAIM to be 2A, need to do some pro bono work and start filing suits against Brady. Brady does that to us. Most of them fail. But they take what sticks. It also makes us look defensive and not credible.

There is a line where it's too much, but short of that line, sue them for defamation every time they claim gun owners are all nuts. Sue them when they say we support criminals. Sue them for wrongful death for restricting access to the means of self defense. Bury them in lawyers. Grab the headlines.

They're building a wall brick by brick. We can wait for explosives that are never going to come, or break out the jackhammers.

BTW: What "guidance" and funding did the NRA offer on this case? I understood they were told to butt out.
 
the NRA? they tried to PREVENT the case.
I'd say more on that but it would not be very high road of me.
 
Henry Bowman said:
Bart, this is an imperfect analogy, but Paris Hilton has demonstrated by her own past actions that she lacks the judgment to use automobiles (or alcohol) responsibly. Yet even though her DL is suspended for a while, it will be restored. She remains allowed to own/buy/possess vehicles and even use alcohol following her conviction and incarceration.

I agree with that and I agree that most of the people who lose the right to firearms should have it restored if they can demonstrate responsiblity. Heck, the only difference between some of the people who have behaved irresponsibly with firearms in the past and me is that I was fotunate enough not to run across the law with a barrel 0.1" too short or something similar.

My problem is not with the vast number of non-violent criminals that I feel are wrongly denied their rights; but with an example from the front page of today's Dallas Morning News. This upstanding member of society (Michael Wyatt) had already been convicted of capital murder almost a year earlier; but was out on bond when he tried to grab a cop's gun and was arrested again. Two days later, out on bond yet again, he graduated from attempted murder to murder. I don't think NICS is a big impediment to guys like this; but I think we need to fix the system that lets this animal out before we can hope to gain much ground with the concept that anyone who is free should enjoy Second Amendment rights.

madmike said:
There is a line where it's too much, but short of that line, sue them for defamation every time they claim gun owners are all nuts. Sue them when they say we support criminals. Sue them for wrongful death for restricting access to the means of self defense. Bury them in lawyers. Grab the headlines.

The problem is that when these suits fail, they can have consequences not just for that one case; but every case that comes afterwards. Parker itself came within one plaintiff of being knocked out by bad precedent established by Navegear (another gun case) regarding standing. Silveira has thrown up roadblocks for some plaintiffs in certain circuits.

I am glad that Parker went ahead. In fact, the two big recent cases on the Second Amendment are both cases that are not backed by NRA (Emerson and Parker). So I think you can make a fair argument that the NRA is over-cautious; but at the same time I can see why they would feel that way. This isn't like shooting baskets where if you miss once you just take another shot. It is like shooting baskets where if you miss, you get moved back ten feet.
 
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