Lead bullet and bullet diameter question.

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I just recently started reloading and have been enjoying it immensely. Of course the more I do the more questions I have. One of the calibers I reload for is the .454 Casull. So far I have just been using Hornady XTP bullets, 250gr, and 300gr magnum with light loads of Titegroup and medium to very heavy loads with H110. What are the general velocity limits for lead and hardcast lead bullets. I've heard not to push regular lead over 1200fps but the hardcast like Oregon trails Lasercast can handle much more. Any input? Also I know that most of the 45colt/454 Casull are .452 diameter. Could I use the .451 230gr jacketed bullets that are widely used for the 45acp for general plinking, not exceeding 1200fps? Thanks!
 
.454 Casull Bullets

1. They faster you push lead bullets, the more likely you are to get barrel leading. You will probably get some leading even at lower velocities. I would be guided by a reloading manual that gives loads for lead bullets. I personally prefer to use jacket bullets to avoid the leading problem but of course they're more expensive.

2. There should be no problem using bullets 0.001 inch smaller than your Casull barrel. The slightly smaller diameter could adversly affect accuracy but I doubt it will.
 
How much leading you get will depend on a host of factors. In general, harder alloys will produce less leading, assuming the bullet fits your bore and your gun is set up right (throats right size, forcing cone cut correctly, timing right, throats perfectly aligned with bore, etc.). Pure lead is very soft and difficult to cast well. Adding things like tin and antimony improves castability and produces a harder alloy. "Hardcast" bullets are just bullets with relatively high amounts of tin and antimony compared to "softcast" (which are typically 20:1 or even 30:1 alloys of lead and tin).

Sometimes, however, a hard bullet will cause leading while a softer bullet will not. That's usually an indication that you are using too small of a bullet, because what is happening is that the softer bullet is obturating (expanding) to fill the grooves in the bore, while the harder bullet is not. The harder bullet is allowing hot gases to jet around it as it travels down the bore, and this jetting action is what causes the lead deposits.

I don't believe that Oregon Trail's bullets are any harder than any other manufacturer's "hardcast" bullets. They're also no harder than what you can produce at home. It's just a matter of using the right alloy.

If you are experiencing excessive leading, there are a couple of things you can do to reduce it. Slug your bore to make certain you are using the correct bullet size. Sometimes just going up .001 in bullet diameter solves all your problems. Switching to a harder alloy may significantly reduce or eliminate leading. Going to a flat-base bullet instead of a bevel base will often help. At velocities much above 1200 fps, gas checks are a good idea. If need be, get your gun checked out by a competent smith to make sure that bore/cone/throat/alignment issues aren't causing a lot of the problem. If all else fails, stick to jacketed bullets.
 
At what velocity should I use gas checks? Magtech has a jacketed 230gr bullet like the typical 45acp ball bullet that lists as a .452 diameter. Anybody have any light .454 casull recipes with this type of bullet. Been using 11gr of tightgroup with 250gr Hornady XTP's so far.
 
Your gun should have a .451" bore, not .452". 45 Colt from way back had a .454" bore.

.451" Jacketed bullets are the 'right' diameter for your gun. Watch out with the autoloader bullets, without a cannelure they will get longer as you shoot and tie up the gun if you don't keep the velocities down.

There are a ton of factors that figure into when a bullet will lead and it is not possible to say that at ____ fps you need to do _____. Powder, alloy, throat size, barrel bore dia, lube quality, lube quantity, and so on ALL figure in.

Father Knows Best typed out a great post with a ton of specific info. I would also recommend reading the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
 
I almost hesitate at posting this because I pretty sure I'll get kicked for it. It is a myth that the harder the bullet, the less leading. It's actually just the opposite because the burn/melt temp of lead is higher than than tin which is many times the alloy used to mix with lead to make bullets. It makes it flow easier and fills out a mold better, but it burns less. Bullets with higher tin alloys will leave traces faster than ones composed of almost pure lead. If leading occurs, it comes from burning of the back of the bullet on it's way out, not from the sides of the bullet rubbing against the bore. This is why black powder cartridge shooters push almost pure lead bullets at velocities of 1300 or higher.

For handgun, I use two type of lead bullets which leaves me with little or no lead issues. The first is almost pure lead (with a little linotype to help it fill out the mold nicely) and tumble lubed with Lee Liquid alox. The second almost pure linotype tumbled the same way. I've pushed lead bullets in rifles prepared with these methods to 1800 in some rifles without lead issues to deal with.
 
If leading occurs, it comes from burning of the back of the bullet on it's way out, not from the sides of the bullet rubbing against the bore. This is why black powder cartridge shooters push almost pure lead bullets at velocities of 1300 or higher.

I'm not trying to kick you or anything, but I'm pretty sure the main reasons for less leading with muzzleloaders are that most BP shooters use a patch or sabot around the bullet, muzzleloaders aren't capable of the rate of fire that cartridge guns are, and the rifling in bp guns is obtimized for very soft bullets, while centerfire guns usually have rifling meant for jacketed or hard cast bullets. And I haven't heard anything about the substitute powders causing more leading than actual black powder, but I do think those have a higher burning temp.
 
It's a hard concept, but I'm talking about black powder cartride shooters who commonly shoot 45-70 and above using lead bullets. Smokeless powder does have a higher burn rate, but if you use liquid alox, it doesn't burn before the bullet leaves the bore. I'm probably not going to be able to convince you in writing but I urge you to try it. Years ago, I belived as you do until an old man with many years of loading and casting under his belt proved it to me.

I have a 45Colt rifle and use lead bullets with alox and every 100 rounds or so, I look carefully into the bore for leading traces. I haven't had to clean the boar since I started using alox.

In the book Modern Reloading, Richard Lee talked about trying to come up with a formula and documenting the progress by weighing a 1911 barrel. After he shot a few using a new formula, he weighed again to see how much lead was left. After he used liquid alox, he found the bbl weighed less. After checking for errors, he determined that it was true, not only did the bullets not leave lead, but it actually removed some that was already there.
 
Uncle Don said:
I almost hesitate at posting this because I pretty sure I'll get kicked for it. It is a myth that the harder the bullet, the less leading.

I'm not gonna kick you. Instead, I'll thank you for a thoughtful and informative post.

That makes sense to me. As I mentioned, I have personally seen situations where switching from a "hardcast" to a soft alloy (20:1) bullet actually eliminated a leading problem. In the past, I hypothesized that the reason it worked was that the softer bullet did a better job of filling the bore. It may just be that the softer bullet was more resistant to melting the base, for the reasons you suggest.

I will note, however, that I have definitely seen massive leading problems from undersized bullets that allowed gases to escape around them, eroding the bullet in the process. Going up .001 or .002 in size solved the problem completely, with no change in bullet alloy, or propellant type and weight.
 
Father Knows Best said:
I will note, however, that I have definitely seen massive leading problems from undersized bullets that allowed gases to escape around them, eroding the bullet in the process. Going up .001 or .002 in size solved the problem completely, with no change in bullet alloy, or propellant type and weight.

Yes, I agree completely and forgot to mention it. If your bullet failes to fill the groove diameter, your asking for trouble.
 
I go through about 1500 or so rounds a year cast from 20-1 in my silhouette rifle and have virtually no leading. My load is now at 1280 FPS or so. 15-16 rounds in a 12 minute string can get a barrel pretty warm here in KS during the summer. I think a combination of alloy, lube and bullet size are needed.

I’m right now casting at .005 over my bore diameter. A pretty good explanation of bore/bullet size VS leading can be found on the NEI website;

“Always size the bullets to at least .001 to .002 over groove size. If you have a modern piece made in the US / Japan, SAAMI standards for the bore/groove are usually met and slugging the barrel is not necessary. If your piece is made in Europe or South America, I would suggest that the barrel be slugged by a competent gunsmith to insure bore/groove measurements. This also goes for old antique arms. A bullet that is a frog hair under groove size will lead like crazy. Leading is caused by gas leaking past the bullet and acting like a oxyacetylene torch cutting steel. In this case, linotype bullets will lead faster because they won't obturate and seal as a soft bullet would. The vaporized lead is then blown forward of the bullet and then smeared into the wall of the barrel by the passing bullet. Now you have a real problem!”


http://www.neihandtools.com/mold_info.html

Chuck
 
I did notice that with my M1911A1 that leading did not happen when I switched to ALOX and a Lee tumble lube 230 RN. My question is since ALOX doesn't melt off how would it work in a polygonal rifled bore? Would it allow the same performace or would leading still happen as fast as a conventionaly lubed bullet. Major reason is I have a G21 in .45 ACP and I am using Tight Group 4.6 grains and a Rainer FMC bullet, but I would like to go back to casting for it. I really don't want to buy an aftermarket barrel, but in the intrest of safety I will, but 100 bucks buys a BUNCH of lead from the recycler. Also How about Linotype then tumble lubed?

Silly question but one that needs asking.
Thanks

Chuck
 
I don't have much experience with lead bullets, other than to offer this observation.

I used to use some locally-made cast lead SWCs for my .44 Magnums. They were claimed to be sized at .429", and I never miked them to find out for sure. No reason to doubt it though, for they fell through the cylinder throats on my 629 without any force. But these things would lead my 629 even at speeds in the 1000-fps range. They did not lead my 1894, however, but I never tried to push them until they did.

I've since switched to Oregon Trail's 240gr SWC in the .44. They are listed at .431" and do NOT fall through the cylinder throats. I've pushed these with charges I normally reserve for jacketed bullets and they shoot fine, without leading. I'm more inclined to blame the difference on the bullet size rather than the alloy used, however.
 
So are gas checks unnecessary? I figure if I tried lead I wouldn't go above 1500fps, I'll save the jacketed for that. About the post on the 230gr jacketed bullets, I'm using the Lee factory crimp die and the instruction flyer with the die says it can make its own cannelure. BTW with lead bullets do you just taper seat them or can I use the factory press.
 
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