Lead bullet cleanup?

[judgedelta]

I have fired my Mod. 629 about a hundred times and noticed the barrel and the pistol in general were smoked up and need of some TLC. I had been shooting some Missouri cast 240 with light to moderate loads of 231 and Unique with a little 800X mixed in (separate loads, not mixed powders). Upon wiping the barrel down with some Hoppe's, I noticed all of the gunk in the grooves. About 30 minutes later with patches, jag, brushes and JB bore cleaner, I got most, but not all out. Is this normal for lead bullets or is there something wrong with my loads? some other cleaner I need to use? something wrong with my pistol? Thanks...

 

[Drail]

It is normal to have a small amount of leading. You can either wrap a piece of copper scouring pad around an old brush and force it through the bore or buy a Lewis lead removal tool and pull it through from the breech end. Whatever you do don't let it build up for long.

 

[rcmodel]

With proper size & hardness lead bullets?
Loaded to proper pressure to 'bump' the bullet up to fit the bore.
After it comes out of the chamber throat.
That it MUST fit perfectly?

Your bore should be as clean after shooting lead as before.

I think your problem is:

I had been shooting some Missouri cast 240 with light to moderate loads of 231 and Unique with a little 800X mixed in (separate loads, not mixed powders).

1. You need properly sized bullets to fit your revolvers chamber throats.
2. You need soft enough bullets to 'slug up' to seal the chamber throats & bore so gas blow-by doesn't melt the lead.
3. You need to pick a powder and charge and stick with it with the bullet size & hardness you bought.

OR:
A. One size doesn't fit all.
B. One hardness doesn't work with low & high pressure loads.
C. Pick the girl you want to take to the dance.
D. Then dance with the one you brung to the dance!

rc

 

[Catshooter]

It is not normal to have leading. It is if things aren't correct. I can shoot 500 rounds through my Winchester 94 38-55 and have zero, and I mean zero leading.

This didn't used to be true for my loads/shooting. But I went here:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ and read and read and learned and learned. Got rid of all manner of old wives tales that I used to believe about casting.

Now I can cast!


Cat

 

[340PD]

I know you all are correct but I fiddled with powders and lead hardness combo for years. I did not want to load a separate load for every individual gun I owned.

Then I discovered plated bullets.

End of leading problem forever.

 

[oldbear]

judgedelta, what you are experiencing is normal when shooting lead bullets, especially from a stainless steel revolver. Remember the silver/gray of stainless tends to show every speck of dirt.

I can only suggest two additional steps, 1- use a lead-A-way cloth for a final cleaning of your revolver. 2- Apply two thin coats of wax. Using way will not prevent the gunk buildup, but will make it easier to wipe off.

 

[Catshooter]

340PD,

You suffered from the same thing I did in casting: we didn't know.

We didn't know that the size of the bullet is first and foremost in preventing leading.

We didn't know that hardness is second in importance and it's a distant second.

We didn't know that powder is way down the list.

Plated and or jacketed solve the leading problem forever, it's true.

To be successful in casting it can get technical, measuring this and that. It's not for everyone.

I love it for the cost savings and the independence it gives me. I make my own so I don't care what the LGS has in stock and haven't for years.


Cat

 

[judgedelta]

lead bullet cleanup

Thanks all for the info and suggestions. The bullets I am using are .430" in diameter and have a slight bevel on the base, which I am informed, true Keith bullets did not have. The bullets will not go into the barrel or face of the cylinder by hand. I'll have to try the Chore Girl on a brush. Do you use with this with cleaner or dry? Thanks again... JD

 

[Arkansas Paul]

If the leading is light this helps a lot.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/39...ning-solvent-4-oz-liquid?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Of course if the leading is severe this won't work that well.

 

[Schwing]

Another solution=powder coated lead bullets. There is a lot of arguing and conjecture as to whether this works or not. I have been doing this for some time now and can tell you it eliminates leading 100%.

 

[Catshooter]

Do the Chore Boy dry. At least I do.

It's fine that the bullets won't enter the throats, better that then the other way around.

The bullet can easily be too small for the barrel and still not fit down the bore. The only way to know for sure is to measure both. Go here : http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php
and read like a fiend if you really want to get into casting.


Cat

 

[BCRider]

Leading is NOT normal. If you're getting actual leading and not just powder fouling in the grooves then you will want to change SOMETHING to eliminate the issue.

You mention you're using light charges of those powders, so that's good. You don't want to be using cast bullets for full power magnum shooting. At least not without carefully tailoring the lead hardness along the lines of what Elmer Keith had to do.

But if you're using TOO light a charge that can be bad for leading.

Most bullets for 44Mag are going to be expected to be shot at higher pressures. So they start with a slightly harder alloy so it won't deform too greatly. But if you're not using enough pressure it won't obdurate out far enough to fill and seal the grooves. The resulting gas blowby tends to vaporize a little of the lead and desposit this onto the bore. So you might try bumping the charges up a little if you're trying to achieve a mild but still serviceable velocity.

On the other hand if you want to get into the really light rounds you could try finding a source of softer bullets so they obdurate out more easily to seal and ride the walls of the bore both on the lands AND in the grooves.

When you get it right you won't see any leading. I typically shoot 300 to 400 rounds out of my single action cowboy guns before the fouling around the cylinder gets to where it slows down the guns and the outsides are just too dirty to touch. Even then the bores come clean with just some blackness from the powder fouling on the patches. Two solvent patches, one oiled patch and a final dry patch and the bore is done. No wire brushing or chore boy pads needed. I'm shooting moderate to nearly full power .38Spl loads just because I don't want to feel like I'm spitting at the targets instead of shooting. But my choice likely produces enough pressure that the bullets are sealing well. And my barrel condition sure supports that option.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

But if you're using TOO light a charge that can be bad for leading.

This is absolutely true and it's something that a lot of people new to lead bullets don't realize. I would bet money that there are more leading problems caused by too light loads than too heavy.

 

[judgedelta]

Thanks all for the advice and suggestions. I have already loaded up 90 rounds of 240's with 6 grains of 231. It is a really pleasant round to shoot, but it may not be enough to obdurate the bullet, which shows on the box to have an 18 Brinell hardness. I don't know if I can pull the SWC bullets and may just have to shoot them up....

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I have already loaded up 90 rounds of 240's with 6 grains of 231. It is a really pleasant round to shoot, but it may not be enough to obdurate the bullet, which shows on the box to have an 18 Brinell hardness.

I suspect you are correct.
I bet if you bump that up a bit you'll see the leading decrease.

18 BHN is too hard for light loads. If you're loading them light, get some of the 12 BHN bullets and you'll have better success.
I did the same thing BTW in my .45 Colt. I ordered 18 BHN and loaded up some light Trail Boss loads for the wife to shoot. I got some leading issues. I loaded up some with straight wheel weights that I cast (probably 10-11 BHN) and they do great.

 

[BCRider]

You could pull the bullets but that sounds like a lot of work. I'd suggest simply shoot them and clean out the bore again. And if you have any of those harder bullets keep them for stouter loads.

See if you can find some softer cast bullets. .44Mag isn't an unusual chambering to be used for cowboy action. And since they use light loads there should be some bullets around that would be useable for this sort of load.

 

[Catshooter]

There are also two schools of thought on obduration.

Elmer Keith believed in it, so does Richard Lee.

Many don't. I'm among the doubters. I'm a results oriented guy having worked as an electrician for 35 years.

I have recovered some very light loaded bullets from snow that didn't lead, were very accurate and showed zero signs of obduration. I've also recovered full power 44 mag bullets that showed zero signs of obduration. Both bullets were cast from wheel weights which is not a hard alloy.

Hardness has been way over played in casting. Actually to the point of "hard cast" becoming a noun that people think mean something. It's a marketing label.

Hardness only matters when it does. And for light loads it doesn't matter.


Cat

 

[CosmicCoder]

It's obturate not obdurate.

ob·tu·rate

[ob-tuh-reyt, -tyuh-] verb (used with object), ob·tu·rat·ed, ob·tu·rat·ing.
1. to stop up; close.
2. Ordnance - to close (a hole or cavity) so as to prevent a flow of gas through it, especially the escape of explosive gas from a gun tube during firing.

Origin:
1550–60; < Latin obtūrātus, past participle of obtūrāre to block, stop up

Related forms:
ob·tu·ra·tion, noun
ob·tu·ra·tor, noun​

ob·du·rate

[ob-doo-rit, -dyoo-] adjective
1. unmoved by persuasion, pity, or tender feelings; stubborn; unyielding.
2. stubbornly resistant to moral influence; persistently impenitent: an obdurate sinner.

Origin:
1400–50; late Middle English obdurat < Latin obdūrātus (past participle of obdūrāre to harden), equivalent to ob- ob- + dūr ( us ) hard + -ātus -ate1

Related forms:
ob·du·rate·ly, adverb
ob·du·rate·ness, noun
un·ob·du·rate, adjective
un·ob·du·rate·ly, adverb
un·ob·du·rate·ness, noun​

 

[Catshooter]

Ah ha! Thanks for the correction.


Cat

 

[BCRider]

The size of the throat will come into this on a revolver. If the throat is the same or slightly larger than the groove diameter it opens up the chance of using boolits that are sized to the groove diameter or perhaps a thou or two bigger. Such bullets will be form fitted to the bore and grooves and do not need to obturate to obtain a good gas seal.

There is also some writeup I saw a few weeks back discussing the function of the lube groove and lube in sealing the bullet. So that's a factor as well.

But if the throats are a hair smaller than the groove diameter or even sized similarly to the bore diameter then we are pretty much depending on the lead to obturate to some extent at least to get a good fit to the rifling and form the basis of a decent gas seal either of all lead or to where we can rely on the lube to aid in forming a working seal.

I know that reading over on Cast Boolits that more than one revolver has had a big jump in accuracy that came from reaming out the throats so the cast bullets was able to be of a size which would work better with the bore. Likely this better fit also reduced the risk of leading.

 

[OrangePwrx9]

I normally shoot lightly loaded wadcutters at paper targets in my .357 revolvers. Sometimes I get leading, sometimes not; depends on the bullet & lube. I normally use whatever I can buy. Typically the leading is light but definitely there.

Shooting a few copper jacketed full power loads at the end of a session has been sufficient to clear lead out of the bore.