Lead hard cast bullets carbine & revolver

[Hook686]

I have a Marlin 1894c and a S&W 686 ... these are .357 Magnum. I am fairly new to reloading and when I bought some Bear Creek 158 grain LRN bullets I read that for lead bullets, the velocity ought be kept below 900 fps. I had no problem with this and loaded these 158 grain LRN bullets at less than 900 fps in the 686. I experienced no problem with either the revolver, or the carbine.

I want to load a heavier load. So I bought some Hunters Supply hard cast lead SWC bullets at MidwayUSA.com. My Lyman manual indicates that linotype bullets are loaded over a range that includes greater than 900 fps (up to 1600 fps in the carbine).

I'm not familiar with the term "linotype". Is this the same as "Hard cast" ? Will I experience leading of the barrels if I load to these higher velocities in hard cast lead bullets ?

Hook686

 

[fecmech]

Hard is no guarantee that it won't lead. Leading is more a function of correct size to throat and bore and lube quality. In the .357 I routinely shoot cast lead (wheel weight metal) to 1300fps out of my gp100 6" and the same loads out of my Rossi single shot rifle at about 1600fps with no leading and very good accuracy. These are plain base bullets (no gas check). I would try both bullets you have and see how they work, a leaded barrel if it happens is no big deal. Stick with the slower powders (H110,296,2400,4227) these will give you a better chance of a lead free experience. Good luck Nick

 

[ReloaderFred]

Hook686,

Back in the days before computers, printing of books and newspapers was done by melting lead alloy into strips with the letters of the words formed in reverse, placing them in special holding trays and coating them with ink. The paper was then rolled over the inked type and the printing was transferred to the paper.

The machine that did the actual melting of the molten metal to form the letters and words was called a "linotype machine". It had a typewriter keyboard and was about 10 feet tall, with a melting pot on one side and ingots of about 50 pounds were suspended on a chain into the pot and fed as needed. As the keys on the keyboard were pushed, a small amount of alloy was fed to the appropriate die and the letter was formed. The strips of words were fed out the other side of the machine into trays.

Over time, the best alloy for setting type was found to be a mixture of 84% lead, 4% tin and 12% antimony, which provided a Brinnell hardness of 22, and became known as Linotype, after the machines. The Brinnell Lead Hardness scale provides a relative comparison of the various alloys containing lead and will relate to the strength of the alloy. Pure lead has a Brinnell Hardness of 5, and Lyman Alloy # 2 has a Brinnell Hardness of 15. The hardest common alloy is known as Monotype, with a Brinnell Hardness of 28, which is too brittle for casting bullets.

For high velocity cast bullets, Linotype is hard to beat, but it won't expand when it strikes an animal, whereas Lyman # 2 will allow some expansion. If you're going to drive the bullets faster than about 1,100 fps, then Linotype is what you should be using, though some bullets with long bearing surfaces can be used with a softer alloy, such as Lyman # 2.

In my Marlin .357 Carbine, with Microgroove rifling, I've found that 175 to 185 grain bullets with a gascheck, cast with either Lyman # 2 or Linotype, are very accurate over 13 to 14 grains of Winchester 296. I cast them from a Saeco double cavity mold and size them .358".

A gascheck is simply a copper cup that is swaged to the base of a cast bullet. This keeps the hot gases from the burning powder from cutting the base of the bullet and also scrapes the bore clean as it travels down the length of the barrel.

I worked for a newspaper while in college in 1963, and the Linotype machines were the only way a newspaper could be printed. The type setting room was noisy and hot from all those machines going at the same time, and they knew nothing about lead safety back then.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Hook686]

Thanks for the very informative explaination on linotype Fred. With your info, and Nick's, I'll switch to 2400 and try startting at 900 fps and build toward 1300 in the Marlin. I had loaded some with Unique going from 6.0 grains to 7.0, which would give about 1100fps at the top end in my 6" S&W 686. Thanks very much for the info guys ... I'll definately not jump into the 1500-1600 fps some of the web pages indicate.

Hook686

 

[ReloaderFred]

You'll know when you've driven the bullet too fast for the Microgroove rifling when your bullets start to keyhole and tumble. Because of the shallow rifling, there is a limit to how much velocity you can get before the lead can't hold onto the rifling anymore and strips through it. You might be able to get some pretty respectable velocities with the linotype bullets. Go ahead and push some of them a little bit, and if they tumble, just back off until they don't tumble anymore.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Glamdring]

Has anyone tried hard cast 170-180 grain bullets in 30-30? Know they work in 357 carbine but wondering about getting similar performance out of a 30-30.

 

[bender]

I was also wondering about this same subject, since I have no experience with lead bullets.

I just bought a Marlin 1894 (the 44mag). Marlin's website says it has 'deep cut Ballard style rifling". Not "microgroove". So I bought some hard-cast .431 bullets for it (Oregon Trail "laser cast") thinking .431 would be a good size for cut rifling.

or is that wrong? Haven't got the rifle yet, should come in this Thanksgiving week sometime.

 

[GRIZ22]

I use Meister 165 gr lead bullets in 30-30. I've pushed them to about 1500 fps with no problems from the micro-groove rifling. I keep the velocity down to 1250 fps which is very accurate and enough power for what I want to do with a cast load.

 

[BruceB]

Gentlemen:

For ANY questions on cast bullets, go to

www.cb.gunloads.com

which is the "Cast Boolit" forum and home to over 2000 amiable and accomplished bulletcasters. I just typed "microgroove" into the search function there, and came up with over 100 'hits'.

Many myths and misinformation appear in discussions on cast bullets, and are often repeated ad infinitum by folks who "heard somewhere" that a cast bullet can't do such-and-such, or it can't be made so-and-so.....

A straight-wheelweight-alloy 170-grain bullet, UNhardened and much softer than linotype, can be driven from a .30-30 at 2000-plus feet per second WITHOUT "leading" and with both good accuracy and the possibility of some expansion....once the handloader knows how. For a personal example, my .416 Rigby can deliver a 365-grain cast bullet at 2600 fps, without leading and with fine accuracy, and I have also run a PURE LEAD bullet from the same mould and rifle at over 2000 fps....also with zero leading. Likewise, straight WW metal makes great handgun loads, right up into the magnum revolver loads at 1500 fps or so.

Most commercial cast bullets give completely false impressions of what can actually be done with bullets which are cast for OUR particular individual guns.

Getting into casting is a major expansion of a handloader's career, and also in his actual involvement in the creation of his ammunition. What part of the ammunition do non-casters actually "make"? Yep....not much, right? When using commercial components, we are really just assembling the ammo. Casting your own bullets really gets you involved in MAKING something.

Come on in; the water's fine!

 

[Glamdring]

Well I am at work and the filters block that link.

I was wondering about using hardcast bullets in some rifles to get performance akin to the 454 & 475 revolvers with bullets that didn't have a premium price.

 

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Gentlemen,

+1 on what BruceB said about lead hardness.

BruceB knows exactly what he's talking about. Listen to him and follow his advice, go to cast boolits and learn about how to select a bullet diameter for your particular firearm, etc.

Coming to understand how cast bullets work will expand your knowledge of matching bullets to firearm even if you don't get into reloading and continue to buy your bullets.

Regards,

Dave

 

[bender]

www.cb.gunloads.com

well I joined that board yesterday morning, and posted my introduction and my question about proper bullets for my new marlin 44mag 1894.

24 hours later still no replies. There just aren't any shooting boards as friendly as THR. THR is the only board anyone needs.

 

[BruceB]

bender vs. Cast Boolits

bender, sir;

First of all, you posted your question in the middle of another thread. I had to go looking for it, and found it via a search for your handle. If folks aren't interested in the title of the original thread, your question may well not be seen by many people.

Start a NEW thread, with a title that shows what you're looking for.

There is a reply to your post there, by the way.

Like you, I enjoy the open friendliness here at THR. To arbitrarily dismiss ANOTHER extremely friendly Board on the strength of less than 24 hours' experience is short-sighted and rather presumptuous. There are barely a tenth as many members at Cast Boolits as there are here at THR, which also means that most threads get less traffic and readership than many here.

Give the place a chance, man!

 

[BruceB]

Glamdring, pard;

I will repeat:

We do NOT NEED 'hardcast' bullets to do most things in most rifles. To duplicate .454 and .475 revolver ballistics is almost child's play. If "duplicate" means same-diameter/same-weight/same-speed, then we are in the ballpark of the .45-70. Straight (unhardened) wheelweight alloy is all I shoot in my Shiloh .45-70, and I've run some VERY heavy loads through that rifle. For comfort's sake, due to the pointy steel buttplate, I mostly use bullets of around 400 grains at 1500 fps or so, but the horsepower is there if I want to use it (like a 540-grainer at 1900+) and that whips the snot out of any .454! In fact, that's pretty danged close to a .458 Winchester Magnum.

Again, there is NO leading and the bullets are soft. It is the fit of the individual bullet to the individual gun which is the determining factor in "leading" or not. A too-small bullet diameter is almost guaranteed to result in leading, hard bullet or not. My Shiloh has a groove diameter of .4575", and my bullets are sized .459-.460". Unhardened wheelweight alloy has been known to expand on some game animals, but if hunting I'll use a cast softpoint(pure-lead nose and harder shank area).

If we're talking smaller bores, then .35-caliber has many good mould designs available and bullet weight can still be considerable...at least up in the 300-grain vicinity. Smaller than that, and "duplicating" .454/.475 gets tougher due to lack of bullet weight. If you're only speaking of bullet energy, it's still possible in .338 caliber. In the .30s, it gets iffy because the velocity has to be higher with lighter bullets to obtain the energy level of a .454/.475. Cast bullets above 2100 fps or so become something of a specialist's province and good results are harder to achieve. Not impossible, but more difficult.

Incidentally, Shiloh owner/manufacturer Kirk Bryan has stated on many occasions that his Shiloh Sharps' replicas will tolerate any load that a Ruger #1 can handle....quite a statement!

 

[bender]

yes, I tacked on my post to another's Marlin 1894 thread... but it was a very recent thread...

and yes I agree that if I started a new thread, I'm sure it would have gotten a couple responses afterwards.

I still think the large and knowledgable membership of THR is the best place around for info. But since I'm getting interested in shooting lead, I'm still planning to ask occasional questions on cast boolits...