Lee and Grant Colt Cased Set

[Ephraim Kibbey]

If I remember correctly, a question had been raised a while ago about the authenticity of this Colt Lee/Grant cased set that has been on Armslist for a while now:

http://www.armslist.com/posts/71366...e-ulysses-s-grant-consecutive-serial-numbers-

I just found a similar cased set that recently sold (not to me) at our local auction :

https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/u...ing-pair-of-colt-percussion-revolvers-3889736

While the Cowan's set is blued/case hardened and the Armslist set is engraved and apparently nickel plated, the case and accouterments seem to be similar so I am guessing the latter is a Colt Custom Shop product.

Since the blued set got $1763, the $2500 for the nickel set now seems realistic.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

To me, calling them antiques makes me wonder what other poetic license is being engaged.

 

[bannockburn]

I remember seeing the blued/color case hardened set but don't recall the nickel plated offering. Definitely prefer the look of the blued version as well.

 

[Fingers McGee]

The nickel set is not Colt. It is more than likely a pair of ASM nickel plated/gold washed consecutive SN 1851s that were thrown together with a silver plated Florentine flask (that Colt never used) and a bullet mold of unknown origin. It does have a pair of Colt cap tins that might add an air of correctness to the set. I would like to know the serial numbers for these pistols because the real Grant/Lee pistols all had distinct serial numbers containing either REL or USG for the individual pistols and GLP for the matched pair sets.

 

[arcticap]

The nickel set is not Colt. It is more than likely a pair of ASM nickel plated/gold washed consecutive SN 1851s that were thrown together with a silver plated Florentine flask and a bullet mold of unknown origin. It does have a pair of Colt cap tins that might add an air of correctness to the set. I would like to know the serial numbers for thee pistols because the real Grant/Lee pistols all had distinct serial numbers containing either REL or USG.

I was wondering why the Grant gun in the Armslist pair didn't have the squareback trigger guard.

I can't help but think that when a seller on Armslist doesn't want to ship that it could be because 1) They want cash only 2) They don't want to get in trouble for interstate/mail order fraud.
In the original thread, someone speculated that it might be a Colt Custom Shop item.
Not having any expertise, I wondered if there was any reference source or book for such a claim.
Unless it was a Heritage set or something, I don't see why it would be plated and something doesn't seem right about the set.
Fingers, I'm glad that you doubt the authenticity of that Armslist set.

 

[Fingers McGee]

I was wondering why the Grant gun in the Armslist pair didn't have the square back trigger guard.
In the original thread, someone speculated that it might be a Colt Custom Shop item.
Not having any expertise, I wondered if there was any reference source or book for such a claim..

The only published source, that I know of, for all of the 2nd Gen and Sig Series Colt's is Dennis Russell's Handbook and Price Guide. This set is not listed - even among the un-cataloged models

 

[LonesomePigeon]

I'm not convinced the one on Armslist are real Colt's, or if they are they are probably Signature Series' and not 2nd Gen's. The normal 2nd Gen Grant/Lee set has one squareback and one round trigger guard. The one one Armslist has two round trigger guards. The round trigger guard of the normal 2nd Gen is actually sorta square-ish. The round trigger guards on the Armslist set seems to be fully round. Another thing is, look at the contoure of the barrel lug as it comes up from the frame nose. On the normal Colt 2nd Gen's this contoure is very abrupt. On the Armslist set the contoure is more sloped.
The flask is not right for Colt 2nd Gen, nor for Sig Series. Nor did their sets ever include a powder measure.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I asked the Armslist seller for more pictures and he sent some to me.
The top of the barrels have the right hand Colt address but it is unlike the Cowan's set in that the "L" in "SAML" is full size not an underlined superscript.
Also the arrow points are missing.
The serial numbers are consecutive, not identical as in the Cowan's set and are only digits (not marked LGP & GLP or even REL & USG.)
The cylinders are marked "Colts Patent" with the serial number but the left side of the frame is not marked "Colts Patent" within the engraving.
The left side of the barrels are not marked with the commemorative inscription within the engraving.
I asked him to look under the barrels hidden by the loading levers for any identification but have not heard back yet.

 

[Fingers McGee]

What are the serial numbers? Everything you have listed makes them NOT Colts; but, the serial numbers would clinch it. Matched pair sets were numbered GLP001 through GLP 250 . and the individual sets were REL or USG 001 through 4750.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Fingers - The revolver he sent me a picture of had just "79187" on the underside of the frame and again on the underside of the barrel.
There were no letters or any marks that could have been out of focus letters visible.
He did not send a picture of the grip butt.
He said the revolvers are consecutively numbered (not matching) but he did not send a picture of its mate so I do not know if it is 79186 or 79188.
None of his pictures show the right side of the frame or barrel so I do not know if they show Italian proofs but they might be hard to see in the engraving anyway.

He just replied to my question about ASM markings.
He said that he looked under the loading lever and found no markings of any kind.
He said that he is the original owner and the set was sold to him long ago just as pictured at a local gun shop.
He said that the merchant told him that they were third generation Colts.
None of his pictures showed the grip back strap so I do not know if they have the Sam Colt signature.

 

[Fingers McGee]

Can you get a picture of the top of the case, the inside of the lid and a better picture of the inside of the case?
That would help confirm or deny that the case is Colt.
I'm afraid though that the local gun shop screwed him.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Fingers - He did include pictures of the case but he sent them to my phone in a text and I have not had time to download them to my computer.

His case's layout appears to be the same as the one in the Cowan's Auction with two covered compartments and the same partitioning.
I wonder if Colt had extra cases when they stopped the Second Generation offerings and wholesaled them off empty.

Inside - Center Printed in Gold: Top Line "ULYSSES S. GRANT," Middle Line "ROBERT E. LEE," Bottom Line "NINETEEN SEVENTY ONE," Bottom Left Corner "MATCHED PAIR," Bottom Right Corner a Circled Rampant Colt.

Outside - Center Engraved: Top Line "ULYSSES S. GRANT," Middle Line "ROBERT E. LEE," Bottom Line "NINETEEN SEVENTY ONE," Bottom Right Corner an inset Medallion With "COLT" and a Circled Rampant Colt.

 

[red rick]

The seller is just down the road from me . They are nice looking revolvers , but I liked the blued ones better also .

 

[Norton Commando]

To me, calling them antiques makes me wonder what other poetic license is being engaged.

Me too. It's not right in my mind.

Jason

 

[Fingers McGee]

Not all of the 2nd Gens got built or sold. The case is more than likely an excess case that got sold separately. I have a 1 of 500 baby dragoon cased set that I made from obtaining the pistol, accessory set and display case from different sources. Other than the cap tins, the accessories are definitely not Colt I just received a pair if Nickel plated pocket pistols that were in a repurposed 1 of 500 display case.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

"Nice pistols McGee"
I like the nickel & white grip combination best.
I think the seller's set looks great even with the wood grips and even if they are not Lee & Grants.
I really wonder what they are.
My EMF and NA catalogs have come up empty.
All the Nickel/Gold Piettas I have seen are in .44 and the nickel ASMs usually have a bare brass frame.
ASM made a beautiful blued engraved 1851 in .36 with white eagle grips but I have not see one of them in nickel or nickel/gold.
I would like to compare the engraving on the seller's guns to those blued ASM 1851's especially since they are known for their Colt barrel addressed rarities.
I did find this "Uberti 1851 Navy Oval TG .36 cal 7 1/2" Nickel plated with Ivory style grips (340001)" that had sold on GunsAmerica:


but it is not engraved.
I'll keep collecting photos of BP revolvers for sale and hopefully solve the mystery.