Lee collet crimp die vs factory crimp die question

[Waterboy3313]

Sorry if this is a stupid question. A while back I ordered some 158gr 38 cal jacketed bullets from RMR. They don't have a cannalure. I have been loading these in 357 mag with great results using titegroup for plinking. I recently started loading Hornady xtp s with H110 with great results.

I just ordered a Lee collet crimp die. It's not a factory crimp die. I'm not exactly sure what the difference actually is between the two. It's supposed to make a secure crimp in a bullet without a cannalure. I would like to be able to load the RMR bullets using H110 but the fact they don't have a cannalure has caused me to not use them.

Should the collet crimp die allow me to use a slow powder like h110 on a bullet without a cannalure? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The best answer is: Maybe.
If you try to use the crimp collet to cut in a cannelure it’ll make the bullet unstable in flight and may cause plating separation. If you just create a normal roll crimp using the collet and don’t break the plating or cause a wrinkle in the jacket, you should be fine. Too light and you will get pull under recoil. So, yes, a collet might give a tighter crimp but it’s no substitute for tight neck tension. A sized case with a tight neck and no expander before seating or just a minimum opening of the case mouth should be enough. A collet to close the mouth is a good idea though.

 

[drband]

The FCD has a sizing ring to size the entire cartridge in case of deformation during loading. The crimp portion is a standard roll crimp in a .38spl FCD. It will give you plenty of crimp to use H110 with the RMR bullet. It’s all in how you adjust the die for crimp.
As far as a collet crimp die, I have not used one but I think it would also offer plenty of crimp but no overall case resizing.

 

[Waterboy3313]

I guess when the crimp die gets delivered it will be experiment day. When I ordered the bullets my plan was to load them with H110 and before they arrived I noticed they didn't have a crimp groove. I guess if it doesn't work I know they make good light load titegroup plinking rounds.

I actually bought a 357 mag taper crimp die for these bullets. Now I just bought a collet crimp die. I refuse to buy a fcd. If it doesn't work I guess my next move is load the rest with titegroup and move on.

 

[243winxb]

https://support.leeprecision.net/en/knowledgebase
Post #2 covered it well.

Crimp jump test. Fill the revolvers cylinder with ammo. Fire all but the last round. Has the COL changed? More then .005" movement, More bullet hold/neck tension is needed. Or a stronger crimp.

 

[Waterboy3313]

Like I said once the next crimp die gets delivered I will have to do some testing. Not only do I have to deal with the crimp die I will have to do another work up for this combo. I don't even think RMR offers this bullet anymore. I know they have something similar with like a smiley face on the flat surface but I'm not sure it's the same bullet. I guess I probably should have just held off on the extra die and just stepped up to either buying more Hornady xtps or something with an actual cannalure.

 

[drband]

A cannelure is not required. You can seat and crimp with a normal .38/.357 seating die. A collet die will allow you to crimp separately from seating, as will a FCD.
The taper crimp die is not a great option for full power .357 with H110.
Good luck on your journey.

 

[Waterboy3313]

The taper crimp die is not a great option for full power .357 with H110.

I 100% agree. That's why I have been using these bullets with titegroup. It's like shooting a hot 38 special load without using the 38 special case. When I ordered the bullets I didn't realize they didn't have a cannalure. I was hoping that using a collet crimp die would allow me to use these bullets with H110.

The more I think about it I'm thinking I should probably just stick with the Hornady xtp for full magnum loads and keep the RMR FMJ for mild loads like I've been doing. I have good results doing exactly what I'm doing. Burning up a bunch of powder and primers to find another load just doesn't sound fun right now. Let alone if for some reason I get some kind of bullet jump that locks up my revolver sounds like more of a possible problem I could do with out.

 

[Skgreen]

Which bullet?

To the best of my knowledge, RMR only recently started making a 38/357 bullet, (147 gr truncated cone jacketed)
If the bullet in question is a 158, they may have been purchased at RMR, but they were made elsewhere. (Pictures would help)

Regarding the 147 RMR's, and FWIW: These DO NOT have a cannelure but they have a good thick jacket that can handle a crimp.
https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets/pistol/357-38/357-147-gr-rmr-fmj-smiley/

 

[Waterboy3313]

The bullet in question is 158gr Round nose flat point. If these are in fact not produced by RMR I would interested in knowing who actually manufactured them.

 

[243winxb]

RMR owner is on here as "longdayjake" , ask him.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

A cannelure is not necessary. Nor is it necessary to score the bullet when roll crimping. All that is necessary is good neck tension and a proper fit between bullet and case. Don’t over complicate something as simple as seating the bullet. But I would ask @longdayjake about it since he’s here and always willing to help. Can’t hurt to get an expert opinion.

 

[mdi]

I never liked roll crimping into the side of a smooth sided bullet so when necessary for crimping a no cannelure/groove bullet I used a taper crimp. Worked fairly well except for my heavier loads. I never had a neck tension problem with any of my handgun rounds w/Lee dies. I had a collet crimp for my 30-30 and .223 and they worked great so as soon as Lee offered a collet crimp for 44 Magnum, I got one. IMO, an excellent tool. Good, smooth crimp and adjustable. The crimp held on my "T-Rex Killer" loads well without "over crimping"(265 gr LRNFP over a max. load of WC820). I would recommend the Lee collet crimp for crimping smooth sided bullets and cannelure/crimp groove bullets. (The Lee Factory Crimp die I had now resides in a landfill somewhere in So. Oregon)...

 

[Walkalong]

Might work well, don’t get carried away with it, then test them.

Its a neat way to crimp if you don’t like trimming cases. I trim mine.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The bullet in question is 158gr Round nose flat point. If these are in fact not produced by RMR I would interested in knowing who actually manufactured them.

Those look like the brass jacketed bullets RMR was selling when they couldn't source any other bullets in that caliber.

The 158gr bullets they sold prior to that were plated.

They're newest FMJ .357" bullets are 147gr, look like Matchwinners, and have a happy face on the flat nose

 

[RealGun]

Sorry if this is a stupid question. A while back I ordered some 158gr 38 cal jacketed bullets from RMR. They don't have a cannalure. I have been loading these in 357 mag with great results using titegroup for plinking. I recently started loading Hornady xtp s with H110 with great results.

I just ordered a Lee collet crimp die. It's not a factory crimp die. I'm not exactly sure what the difference actually is between the two. It's supposed to make a secure crimp in a bullet without a cannalure. I would like to be able to load the RMR bullets using H110 but the fact they don't have a cannalure has caused me to not use them.

Should the collet crimp die allow me to use a slow powder like h110 on a bullet without a cannalure? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Get the right bullet for the H110. Your concern is well placed.

 

[Waterboy3313]

Get the right bullet for the H110. Your concern is well placed.

That's the plan. I still a couple hundred 158gr XTPs.

So maybe this is another dumb question. Don't get me wrong I love the 158gr bullets without the cannelure. They make great soft shooting plinking ammo using titegroup. I still probably have close to 1000 of them left. Is there an actual application for these other than what I've been using them for? In my opinion it seems like kind of a waste of time to produce a bullet for something like a 357 magnum that really isn't a good match for use with a slow powder. I get some people might not want to load a full on magnum load and that the 38 special does exist but why produce a bullet that is for a revolver or used in a revolver 99% of the time without a cannelure? To me it just seems like if they had a simple crimp groove that the application would open up and the manufacturer would be ahead. I'm probably way over thinking this but I have an inquisitive mind.

I am familiar with the plated 125 and 158 grain RMR bullets I bought a ton of them a few years ago and still have quite a few they also worked great with titegroup and we're my go to 357 mag and 38 special plinking loads for a while. Although they actually have a crimp groove if you want to call it that I never tried using them with any powder other than titegroup. Being plated I don't know that I would want to push them too hard.

 

[243winxb]

Crimp jump test.

Have you tested?

Neck tension keeps bullets from moving. Measure the case OD before & after seating the bullet. The OD should get larger by a minimum of .002" MORE IS BETTER. As much as .004" is needed on BIG magnums like a 460 S&W. A crimp does help.
Seat the non-cannelure bullet deep into the case, to the ogive.

 

[243winxb]

Need more neck tension? Size brass smaller using a Lee UNDERSIZE sizing die. Turn your expander down smaller.

 

[Waterboy3313]

Need more neck tension? Size brass smaller using a Lee UNDERSIZE sizing die. Turn your expander down smaller.

Thank you for your great input. I appreciate it. I'm just received my package from lee today in the mail.

Geodude. I see your post was deleted or whatever. I wanted to say I appreciate your input as well and I was not ignoring your advice or anyone else for that matter. I actually really appreciated it. As well as what everyone else had to say. I will admit I got a bit side tracked and probably missed a bit of info right out of the gate. I admit I'm not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed and I have a lot to learn.

Again I will say I appreciate all of the input I am not the most experienced reloader. That is obviously why I have a few questions. Im sorry if I rubbed some the wrong way that was not my intentions.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Thank you for your great input. I appreciate it. I'm just received my package from lee today in the mail.

Geodude. I see your post was deleted or whatever. I wanted to say I appreciate your input as well and I was not ignoring your advice or anyone else for that matter. I actually really appreciated it. As well as what everyone else had to say. I will admit I got a bit side tracked and probably missed a bit of info right out of the gate. I admit I'm not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed and I have a lot to learn.

Again I will say I appreciate all of the input I am not the most experienced reloader. That is obviously why I have a few questions. Im sorry if I rubbed some the wrong way that was not my intentions.

They were right to delete it. I wasn’t offended and I’m sorry if I offended. Sometimes we all get focused on the idea there’s only one right way of doing things and anything outside that line of thinking just don’t make sense. My apologies for being rude. Carry on and feel free to ask questions. It’s always been why this group exists and I made the mistake of forgetting that. Sorry, RC. I said it poorly.

 

[Waterboy3313]

Hey no problem I get it. I lost focus on the whole thing. I am on on the fence if I actually want to try these bullets with H110 now. My point obviously didn't come across clear about having a cannelure. I was just starting my opinion that if they did actually have a cannelure it would probably clear up some of the confusion. Especially for some of the less experienced crowd such as myself. I started reloading on the fact that I like to shoot a lot. At the time I started a few years ago I didn't actually know anyone that reloaded in person. I learned everything I know from reading (most of it here on the highroad) as well as careful trial and error. I will admit I don't know a whole lot but I will admit I have learned a lot as well.

There are a lot of great people on here that have helped me learn. Sometimes I have to read the same thing over and over and then all of a sudden the light clicks on. Again I appreciate all you you guys with your great knowledge and experience.

 

[sparkyv]

I use the collet crimp die for 44 Mag and 460S&W Mag. They work great. I also suggest the crimp jump test to verify the proper collet crimp die setting.

Crimp jump test. Fill the revolvers cylinder with ammo. Fire all but the last round. Has the COL changed? More then .005" movement, More bullet hold/neck tension is needed. Or a stronger crimp.

they worked great so as soon as Lee offered a collet crimp for 44 Magnum, I got one. IMO, an excellent tool. Good, smooth crimp and adjustable

 

[Waterboy3313]

I noticed when I opened the collet crimp die package there were not any instructions included. I'm sure it's not rocket appliances but I will definitely have to figure out what works.

 

[sparkyv]

Try this...sort of.

I noticed when I opened the collet crimp die package there were not any instructions included. I'm sure it's not rocket appliances but I will definitely have to figure out what works.