Lee Enfield First Timer

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dbb1776

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Fired my Lee Enfield for the first time today. The cases chambered and extracted fine but came out looking like .303 British Improved brass. How much case stretching is too much? I understand these rifles have generous chambers.
Can anyone post pictures of "normal" fireformed brass?
 
Sounds like your headspace is loose. Which model Enfield do you have? You can adjust the headspace on a No 4 by changing to a different size bolt head....chris3
 
Check out Steve Regwell's website: www.303british.com. He has good information about shooting and reloading for Lee Enfields. Most of my once-fired .303 brass likes like ".303 Improved" as well. Lee Enfield chambers are military tolerances and a bit generous. Not to worry if you neck size cases afterwards.
 
Enfield brass does stretch. In addition, it headspaces on the case rim, which means that brass from different manufacturers can have different headspaces. I've measured the rims before and there definitely can be differences.
 
Slightly off-topic question...where in Texas are y'all? I'm in the DFW area, and the range I go to (not that we can afford to go often) will not let me shoot my 1913 Enfield, apparently the rounds have too much steel in em. They'll let me shoot my MN (which rocks!), but I'm itchin to throw some .303 downrange.
 
It's call "fire formed":neener:. Makes reloadind easy. You only have to neck size, as long as you only shoot the one rifle with the ammo.
 
I have a no 1 mark III* from 1916. ftr 1953. The bore is shiny all the way down and the chamber looks clean. I plan on neck sizing only but before I invested in the dies and brass I wanna make sure the rifle doesn't have any issues.
So how much is too much streching, and what's "normal"?
Also, what gauge should you check headspace with, I've seen different opinions?
I did enjoy firing it the rifle, little recoil but plenty of punch.
 
On its first firing a .303Br. "factory" cartridge will be pushed all the way forward by the firing pin until stopped by the rim. Depending on the depth of your rifle's rim recess, the cartridge case's rim thickness, and the distance from the bolt face, the cartridge case will stretch until it is stopped by the bolt face. Because SMLEs were military arms the rim recess and headspace was made generous to allow for variations in ammo production and field conditions. Most of my SMLEs have a chamber rim recess of .069-.074 inches deep. New R-P brass that I have, measure .059-.062 on the rim. This setup guarantees at least .01 stretch upon first firing, and that doesn't take the distance from the bolt face into consideration. Expect to add an additional .003 to .008 for bolt distance. All this adds up to some considerable stretch on the first firing that is considered "normal."

Experienced .303Br shooters who reload for their rifles take special steps to minimise initial stretching on new brass to insure longer case life. (I slip a thin "O" ring over the factory case and in front of the rim to hold the case tight against the bolt face) Once the case is fireformed you will get very little stretching if you only neck size when reloading. There is a lot of information on this subject on the web. Start with Steve Regwell's site and go form there. The Lee Enfield and SMLE rifle is an education it and of itself. I love shooting mine but learning to reload for it took a bit of time.
 
The first one is from a #4 , the second is from a 2A !

Sorry they are so blurry , but you can see the stretch.
 
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Yo, Rabidalien........Just drive down 183, and get on 121 towards Fort Worth, and at Minnis drive, there is the Haltom City Rifle and Pistol club. It is a private club so you will have to join. After initation, the dues are 75 bucks a year. Safest range I have ever shot at. I have been a member for 20 years. The club meetings are the first Wed on the month, like yesterday, at the Golden Corral on 26 just south of 820. Check their web site for info. And, there are alot of milsurp shooters there. The only thing they won't allow is armor piercing ammo.....chris3
 
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Thank you 303tom for the pics. Mine looks like the pic on the left. The brass strecthed about .010 on OAL. I checked out Steve's site, thank you curator. I'm going to accept this as normal and neck size only. I found a box of 100 Hornady .312 softpoints for 19.26 at a local store, cheapest I've seen anywhere.
Also, the ammo I have is Hornady Custom 174 Bthp. The brass is marke PPU, is this Privi Part brass? This was the cheapest factory box I could find at 26 and change.
 
My Brass Pics

Here are pics of my brass, let me know what yall think. Thanks again for everyones information.
 

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Thank you 303tom for the pics. Mine looks like the pic on the left. The brass strecthed about .010 on OAL. I checked out Steve's site, thank you curator. I'm going to accept this as normal and neck size only. I found a box of 100 Hornady .312 softpoints for 19.26 at a local store, cheapest I've seen anywhere.
Also, the ammo I have is Hornady Custom 174 Bthp. The brass is marke PPU, is this Privi Part brass? This was the cheapest factory box I could find at 26 and change.
That is pretty much normal , blast away !
 
Cool, I'll get the stuff for reloading and Blast Away! Thanks again!
 
One more Question

When I shot the rifle the safety flipped up to about half way on. It flipped back far enough to partially engage the safety and prevent the bolt from opening. Is this a common issue? It seems like I could add a washer to tighten it up.
 
When reloading for Lee-Enfields, segregate fired brass by rifle, and neck size only, to prolong case life.
 
During WWI the chambers were lengthened on the Enfield rifle to make room for the mud of Flanders. The British military chamber does not match American SAAMI commercial chamber dimensions.

Below is a Wilson case gage which is nothing more than a SAAMI commercial chamber. The Wilson gages are normally used to adjust resizing dies for only pushing the shoulder of the case back .001 to .002. The fired .303 case below is resting on its shoulder and not the rim, the amount the case below is sticking above the gage is how much longer the British military chamber is than commercial standards.

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The average rim thickness of American made .303 cases is .059-.058 this means at the maximum headspace setting of .074 you can have .016 to .017 head clearance.

Below a .303 case being fired, please note "headspace" and "head clearance" or the "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face and "why" the case stretches in the web area when fired.

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Below is a 1950 No.4 Mk.2 that I experimented with adjusting the headspace from .010 over maximum (.084) to .005 under minimum (.059) Normal military headspace is .064 minimum to .074 maximum, commercial American headspace is .064 GO or minimum, .067 NO-GO or maximum and .070 to .071 as FIELD maximum.

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Please note I have three .303 headspace gages but later I will explain how to check Enfield headspace "without" headspace gages.

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Below is a once fired factory loaded Winchester .303 cartridge case cut in half after firing. This case was fired in an enfield with the headspace set just under .067 and it stretched .009 in the web area.

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The factory loaded Winchester ammunition above only lasted three reloadings before it was tossed in the trash. So one thing you need to know if you reload is that American made commercial cases are "NOT" made to British military standards. They have smaller base diameters and the rims are thinner which causes stretching problems.

Below is a trick the Canadians taught me on how to fire form the .303 cartridge by slipping a rubber o-ring around the case forcing it into contact with the bolt face.

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After fire forming with the o-ring the .303 case will headspace on the shoulder of the case and hold the case against the bolt face to help prevent stretching in the web area.

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I normally fire form my .303 cases using .312 pistol bullets and a reduced load of Trail Boss.

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NOTE: I remove the extractor form the bolt head when fire forming cases for two reasons, it keeps the extractor from cutting the o-ring. The second reason is I do not want the extractor interfering with the centering of the case as the bolt is closed. As the o-ring is compressed it centers the case in the rear of the chamber and promotes even case expansion. Remember you have a "fat" and "long" chamber and a case that runs on the small side in base diameter. So the o-ring serves two purposes. 1. Holding the case against the bolt face and 2. Centering the case in the large military chamber.

I no longer spend money on hard to find longer bolt heads, I just fire my cases to fit my chamber. One person in another Enfield forum reloaded his .303 case using the o-ring method 32 times before he had a split neck and "NO" case head separations. ;)
 
How to check Enfield .303 headspace with only a set of vernier calipers.

First measure a new unfired case or a full length resized case and write the measurement down.

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Now using a spent fired primer insert the primer into the primer pocket just using your fingers.

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Now slowly chamber this test cartridge closing the bolt fully, now remove the test case from the rifle.

Remeasure the test case again and write it down, the amount the primer is protruding is your head clearance or the "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face.

Now subtract the first case measurement from your second case measurement and this will be your head clearance in thousandths.

Now measure your rim thickness and add this to your finial test measurement and this will be your exact headspace measurement.

Example:
First case measurement 2.222
2nd case measurment 2.233
Rim thickness .058
2.233 - 2.222 = .011 + .058 = .069 actual headspace measurement.
 
Thanks, I can perform that check BigEd. I was looking at headspace gauges, but I already have the tools you mentioned.
Anyone have the issue with the safety being flipped "on" when firing?
 
dbb1776

I hate to tell you this but you might have at least one screw loose......................................
or you need to bend the safety spring a fraction of a RCH. ;)
 
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I have at least one screw loose for sure! But back to the rifle. I tightened the screw that holds the safety, I will try to bend the safety spring a fraction.
I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't a sign of something else going on.
 
Second way to quick and dirty check your head clearance/headspace with a feeler gage.

Chamber an empty unfired case or full length resized case.

Now using your thumb push forward hard on the cocking piece pushing the bolt into full contact with the rear of the cartridge case.

Now start inserting feeler gages between the right locking lug and the receiver. Based on a case with a rim thickness of .058 if you can insert a .017 feeler gage your at approximately the maximum headspace of .074

The area between the arrows below is your head clearance or the "air space" between the the very rear of the case and the bolt face. Before you were measuring how far the primer protruded, now you are measuring the "air space" with a feeler gage. ;)

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The best cartridge cases for reloading the .303 British are Prvi Partizan cases, they have thicker rims, larger base diameter and .010 thicker case walls in the base web area than "ANY" other brand of .303 cases.

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Also you can download the Enfield manuals at Milsurps.com I donated for free downloading.

Below is just a small fraction of what you can download. ;)

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