XPLSV
Member
.355 Gold Dot for 357 SIG.
Lee Expander Die - Case Mouth Separation
- Thread starter XPLSV
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ReloaderFred
Member
The .22 Jet was made for a revolver, where case setback would lock up the cylinder. This isn't the case with the 357 Sig, since it's fired in a semi-auto pistol.
The 357 Sig Gold Dot is a very good bullet. I've loaded a couple thousand of them.
Hope this helps.
Fred
The 357 Sig Gold Dot is a very good bullet. I've loaded a couple thousand of them.
Hope this helps.
Fred
XPLSV
Member
Changed to RCBS Dies
I ended up returning the Lee dies over the holidays and got a set of RCBS dies. So, there I was...treating the bottleneck case just like my rifle dies, using a two die set. Did a sampling of 6 bullets for my first round, figuring I better see how they cycle through my Glock, in case I had a problem with the headspace distance on the shoulder.
First bullet, no problem. Next five...major problems. Mouth wasn't expanded enough to properly accept the bullets. I had chamfered the inside of the case mouth and maybe I did a deeper chamfer on case number 1, but the remaining five were not good:
At present, it does not appear I'm getting the case mouth wide enough to accept the bullets. Perhaps I never had this same problem with my various rifle calibers because they generally had boat tails. I believe a sizer ball is pulled up through the case mouth during resizing, so I don't think there is anything I can do for an adjustment on the case mouth diameter, correct? If that is the case, I figured I could try a deeper chamfer or look towards adding a .358 neck expander die to put a bell in the top of the case.
Thoughts?
Bernie
I ended up returning the Lee dies over the holidays and got a set of RCBS dies. So, there I was...treating the bottleneck case just like my rifle dies, using a two die set. Did a sampling of 6 bullets for my first round, figuring I better see how they cycle through my Glock, in case I had a problem with the headspace distance on the shoulder.
First bullet, no problem. Next five...major problems. Mouth wasn't expanded enough to properly accept the bullets. I had chamfered the inside of the case mouth and maybe I did a deeper chamfer on case number 1, but the remaining five were not good:
At present, it does not appear I'm getting the case mouth wide enough to accept the bullets. Perhaps I never had this same problem with my various rifle calibers because they generally had boat tails. I believe a sizer ball is pulled up through the case mouth during resizing, so I don't think there is anything I can do for an adjustment on the case mouth diameter, correct? If that is the case, I figured I could try a deeper chamfer or look towards adding a .358 neck expander die to put a bell in the top of the case.
Thoughts?
Bernie
ReloaderFred
Member
I use a neck expander die with my 357 Sig loading. I also use a combination of Redding and Dillon dies for this caliber.
The case mouth is going to need expanding slightly to accept the bullet. More chamfer may help, and I do chamfer all my 357 Sig brass.
If you have a .40 S&W die for expanding case mouths, and a 9mm expander that will screw into it, that would be the combination to use. The case is going to have to fit inside the die, so I don't think you'll be able to use a .38 die for this purpose and it might expand the case neck too much, anyway. It isn't going to take much flare on the mouth, so just experiment until you find the right combination that works. Just remember that you need lots of neck tension with this caliber, so whatever you do, keep that in mind.
Hope this helps.
Fred
The case mouth is going to need expanding slightly to accept the bullet. More chamfer may help, and I do chamfer all my 357 Sig brass.
If you have a .40 S&W die for expanding case mouths, and a 9mm expander that will screw into it, that would be the combination to use. The case is going to have to fit inside the die, so I don't think you'll be able to use a .38 die for this purpose and it might expand the case neck too much, anyway. It isn't going to take much flare on the mouth, so just experiment until you find the right combination that works. Just remember that you need lots of neck tension with this caliber, so whatever you do, keep that in mind.
Hope this helps.
Fred
XPLSV
Member
Fred,
I've got an RCBS .40 S&W three carbide die set. If I understand you correctly, I can use the expander die from that set but I would need to get a 9mm expander plug to swap into that die? I don't see a separate 9mm expander plug offered by RCBS (maybe I could call them), but I do see they have a 9mm expander die. I'm guessing I could unscrew the expander out of that and put it into my .40 S&W expander die?
Thanks,
Bernie
I've got an RCBS .40 S&W three carbide die set. If I understand you correctly, I can use the expander die from that set but I would need to get a 9mm expander plug to swap into that die? I don't see a separate 9mm expander plug offered by RCBS (maybe I could call them), but I do see they have a 9mm expander die. I'm guessing I could unscrew the expander out of that and put it into my .40 S&W expander die?
Thanks,
Bernie
ReloaderFred
Member
Actually, Bernie, the only reason I suggested the .40 die was so it would accept the body of the 357 Sig case, which is the same diameter as the .40. Any die that the case will fit in, and has a 9mm expander plug in it will work. You might try a couple cases with the .38 expander plug, since some companies use the same plug for both 9mm and .38/.357 Magnum. If it allows enough neck tension after being slightly flared, then it will work.
If you have an extra .38 expander plug, you could always polish it down to the right size with some 400 grit sand paper, then some 600 grit and finish it off by polishing with Flitz or J-B Bore cleaner and a soft cloth. Just chuck the expander in a drill press and polish it as it turns. If you have a lathe, you can always do it that way, too. It won't take much.
Hope this helps.
Fred
If you have an extra .38 expander plug, you could always polish it down to the right size with some 400 grit sand paper, then some 600 grit and finish it off by polishing with Flitz or J-B Bore cleaner and a soft cloth. Just chuck the expander in a drill press and polish it as it turns. If you have a lathe, you can always do it that way, too. It won't take much.
Hope this helps.
Fred
243winxb
Member
357 Sig RCBS Dies
Take the fired cases, lube the body on a pad. Lube the inside of the neck using RCBS http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=744565 Forget the dry lube. Take the correct size neck brush http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=591620 and put a glob of lube on the pad. Load the neck brush with lube. Run brush into neck 3 times, in and out. Not a lot of lube, not to little lube. The expander ball will remove excess lube on sizing. Do not wide the lube out of the neck, its needed for bullet seating later. Now the body and inside of neck is lubed. Full Length Resize Now. Next you need to chamfer the case mouth a whole lot. The inside neck is now .003" under bullet diameter. This means you must remove that amount plus more clearence. This will leave a lip at the mouth of the brass of about .003". The wall thickness .012" is thin. Now prime and powder your brass. Forget the Factory Crimp die. Your bullet does not have a cannelure, NO CRIMPING. The case headspaces on the case mouth. When your seating the bullet you must take the time to start the bullet straight into the case. Make sure your seating die bullet seating stem matches the bullet nose. The best bullet type for a Sig is a FLAT NOSE. Case trimming should not go shorter than .864" IMO as the round headspaces on the case mouth. Get the bullet started by hand into the case the best you can, sometimes they will stay, some times not. By the looks of your last photo you have no feel of the press when your seating or you would not have crushed the one case so badly. The 357 Sig reminds me of the 30 Luger. Other good bullets for the Sig are Hornady #35571 and Sierra #8125 But Flat Nose types are best for better bullet alignment on seating. By the way, i dont own a Sig, never have, never will. Good Luck Oh, forgot, NEVER seat and crimp the bullet in the same operation on thin walled brass types like 357sig, 44-40, etc.
Take the fired cases, lube the body on a pad. Lube the inside of the neck using RCBS http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=744565 Forget the dry lube. Take the correct size neck brush http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=591620 and put a glob of lube on the pad. Load the neck brush with lube. Run brush into neck 3 times, in and out. Not a lot of lube, not to little lube. The expander ball will remove excess lube on sizing. Do not wide the lube out of the neck, its needed for bullet seating later. Now the body and inside of neck is lubed. Full Length Resize Now. Next you need to chamfer the case mouth a whole lot. The inside neck is now .003" under bullet diameter. This means you must remove that amount plus more clearence. This will leave a lip at the mouth of the brass of about .003". The wall thickness .012" is thin. Now prime and powder your brass. Forget the Factory Crimp die. Your bullet does not have a cannelure, NO CRIMPING. The case headspaces on the case mouth. When your seating the bullet you must take the time to start the bullet straight into the case. Make sure your seating die bullet seating stem matches the bullet nose. The best bullet type for a Sig is a FLAT NOSE. Case trimming should not go shorter than .864" IMO as the round headspaces on the case mouth. Get the bullet started by hand into the case the best you can, sometimes they will stay, some times not. By the looks of your last photo you have no feel of the press when your seating or you would not have crushed the one case so badly. The 357 Sig reminds me of the 30 Luger. Other good bullets for the Sig are Hornady #35571 and Sierra #8125 But Flat Nose types are best for better bullet alignment on seating. By the way, i dont own a Sig, never have, never will. Good Luck Oh, forgot, NEVER seat and crimp the bullet in the same operation on thin walled brass types like 357sig, 44-40, etc.
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243winxb
Member
357 Sig Crimp
The cartridge headspaces on the case mouth. This requires a taper crimp if you must crimp. IMO. Bullet seating and taper crimp is done in seperate operations, Not at the same time. To taper crimp, seat the bullet to the finished COL. Place the round in the shell holder/ram/press. Run the ram to the top of its travel. Insert taper crimp die into press. Screw die down with fingers tightly. This will crimp the case without crushing the shoulder. If done very lightly, a bullet without a cannelure can be tapered in the area when the chamfer has removed metal/brass from the case mouth.
The cartridge headspaces on the case mouth. This requires a taper crimp if you must crimp. IMO. Bullet seating and taper crimp is done in seperate operations, Not at the same time. To taper crimp, seat the bullet to the finished COL. Place the round in the shell holder/ram/press. Run the ram to the top of its travel. Insert taper crimp die into press. Screw die down with fingers tightly. This will crimp the case without crushing the shoulder. If done very lightly, a bullet without a cannelure can be tapered in the area when the chamfer has removed metal/brass from the case mouth.
ReloaderFred
Member
Even though everything you read about the 357 Sig says the round headspaces on the case mouth, it actually has two datum points, the case mouth and the shoulder. If you search through the posts concerning loading this round, you'll find a recurring question concerning rounds that won't chamber after being fully sized.
I found this out about 15,000 rounds ago, when I first started loading 357 Sig several years ago. None of my shell holders that would accept the 357 Sig/.40 S&W/10mm (5 of them) would allow the case to enter the sizing die far enough to set the shoulder back enough to allow the rounds to chamber in either of my 357 Sig handguns. I solved the problem by milling off several thousandths from the top of one of my shell holders and dedicating it solely to 357 Sig loading. This solved the problem and I've given this advice to numerous people since then, and it's helped them solve their chambering issues.
For bullets, I use Speer 124 Grain Gold Dot 357 Sig bullets, Hornady 124 grain XTP, Berry's 124 grain plated FP and HP bullets, and the Berry's 115 grain FP bullet. I've run several thousand RN bullets through my .38 Swaging die and made them flat points, and then add a cannelure with the C-H cannelure tool. These also work well in the 357 Sig round.
Hope this helps.
Fred
I found this out about 15,000 rounds ago, when I first started loading 357 Sig several years ago. None of my shell holders that would accept the 357 Sig/.40 S&W/10mm (5 of them) would allow the case to enter the sizing die far enough to set the shoulder back enough to allow the rounds to chamber in either of my 357 Sig handguns. I solved the problem by milling off several thousandths from the top of one of my shell holders and dedicating it solely to 357 Sig loading. This solved the problem and I've given this advice to numerous people since then, and it's helped them solve their chambering issues.
For bullets, I use Speer 124 Grain Gold Dot 357 Sig bullets, Hornady 124 grain XTP, Berry's 124 grain plated FP and HP bullets, and the Berry's 115 grain FP bullet. I've run several thousand RN bullets through my .38 Swaging die and made them flat points, and then add a cannelure with the C-H cannelure tool. These also work well in the 357 Sig round.
Hope this helps.
Fred
243winxb
Member
357 Sig seems to be a pain in the ...............
http://www.realguns.com/archives/077.htm
Why would anyone do all this extra prep work when there are many other calibers that are simple to load and shoot?
http://www.realguns.com/archives/077.htm
This bullet seems to have a tapered/boatail base "Hornady 147 Grain HP/XTP #35580" requiring No flaring of the case mouth. Controling headspace here> http://www.realguns.com/archives/001.htm
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ReloaderFred
Member
243winxb,
I currently load for 29 different calibers and like to experiment and tinker. I can make a silk purse out of a sows ear, so to speak.
I don't understand why you would question what someone else enjoys doing and succeeding at? I also get the impression from your posts that you don't load for this caliber. If you do, then I'm mistaken, but if you don't, then why on earth would you condemn the efforts of others who actually do? Quoting from someone else's website or thread doesn't equate to "hands on" experience. I only post what I actually have experience doing with my own two hands.
My current experiments are with the 9x25 Dillon. If you have actual experience with this round, I'd be interested in hearing what you might have to say about your experiences in loading for it.
Fred
PS: Your second link above says just the opposite of what you've been posting about the 357 Sig headspacing on the mouth. At the bottom of the post, he states that the round headspaces on the shoulder, just as a bottleneck rifle cartridge does. I've read this article before, and he basically agrees with what I've found to be true about this caliber. Our methodology was different in coming to the same conclusion, but the results were the same.
I currently load for 29 different calibers and like to experiment and tinker. I can make a silk purse out of a sows ear, so to speak.
I don't understand why you would question what someone else enjoys doing and succeeding at? I also get the impression from your posts that you don't load for this caliber. If you do, then I'm mistaken, but if you don't, then why on earth would you condemn the efforts of others who actually do? Quoting from someone else's website or thread doesn't equate to "hands on" experience. I only post what I actually have experience doing with my own two hands.
My current experiments are with the 9x25 Dillon. If you have actual experience with this round, I'd be interested in hearing what you might have to say about your experiences in loading for it.
Fred
PS: Your second link above says just the opposite of what you've been posting about the 357 Sig headspacing on the mouth. At the bottom of the post, he states that the round headspaces on the shoulder, just as a bottleneck rifle cartridge does. I've read this article before, and he basically agrees with what I've found to be true about this caliber. Our methodology was different in coming to the same conclusion, but the results were the same.
243winxb
Member
Fred, you are correct, i don't load for 357 sig. I said that above. Most people don't want to "tinker" as you or i do. The correct headspace is set by quality dies & shell holder (RCBS). No crimping is required. IMO The links and info i posted is for XPLSV and others to read and make there own judgement on how to proceed. I didnt mean to offend you in any way. Sorry.
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ReloaderFred
Member
Apology accepted. Another forum member e-mailed me and asked what was going on and why the contradictory posts? I may have been a little harsh on you, and for that I apologize.
The internet is a very one dimensional form of communication, and sometimes meaning doesn't come through as it should........
Fred
The internet is a very one dimensional form of communication, and sometimes meaning doesn't come through as it should........
Fred
XPLSV
Member
I'd just like to thank all of you for your advice and suggestions on this round. After putting the holidays behind and getting done with a PITA child custody case (which, thank the Lord, turned out well), I was able to get back to the bench and successfully work through this round. Final regimen on the single stage press ended up being a full size resizing on an RCBS .40 S&W carbide die, followed by neck sizing on an RCBS 357 Sig steel die, then flaring the neck with an RCBS 9 mm neck expander mandrel that I put into the .40 S&W expander die. This allowed me to seat the bullets (RCBS seater die) without any further case deformation and I finished it up with the Lee Factory Crimp die. It has been an adventure
The next adventure begins soon...my dear wife bought me a Hornady Lock n Load AP press and case feeder Currently on backorder with MidwayUSA...but I think all of the lessons learned here will certainly help in the setup effort when it arrives. Just waiting on that Big Brown Truck of Happiness...
The next adventure begins soon...my dear wife bought me a Hornady Lock n Load AP press and case feeder
Currently on backorder with MidwayUSA...but I think all of the lessons learned here will certainly help in the setup effort when it arrives. Just waiting on that Big Brown Truck of Happiness...
ReloaderFred
Member
XPLSV,
I was wondering the other day how you were coming with this project? Glad to hear you worked it out ok and your other issue also came out good.
You'll like the LNL AP press. With it, you'll be able to do all those steps with one pull of the press handle and it'll be a lot easier.
I don't like to prime on any progressive press, which some don't agree with, but it's my shop, so my rules apply. I do all my case prep and priming prior to putting the brass through the LNL. I did the same thing with my old Pro-Jector press, and it always worked for me. I never have primer issues, so the extra steps are worth it to me. I also clean all primer pockets, so priming on the progressive wasn't an option for me, though I suppose I could do it after I size and decap my brass and have the primer pockets clean, but I have a system for priming that works real well, so I won't change it.
Hope this helps.
Fred
I was wondering the other day how you were coming with this project? Glad to hear you worked it out ok and your other issue also came out good.
You'll like the LNL AP press. With it, you'll be able to do all those steps with one pull of the press handle and it'll be a lot easier.
I don't like to prime on any progressive press, which some don't agree with, but it's my shop, so my rules apply. I do all my case prep and priming prior to putting the brass through the LNL. I did the same thing with my old Pro-Jector press, and it always worked for me. I never have primer issues, so the extra steps are worth it to me. I also clean all primer pockets, so priming on the progressive wasn't an option for me, though I suppose I could do it after I size and decap my brass and have the primer pockets clean, but I have a system for priming that works real well, so I won't change it.
Hope this helps.
Fred
XPLSV
Member
Fred,
I've always cleaned the primer pockets of my rifle reloads, although I've been thinking about either skipping that step entirely for pistol rounds or maybe cleaning the pockets every few reloads. I've got an RCBS
Trim Mate Case Prep Center that I've used for a couple of years but I'll tell ya', it's quite a bit different task holding a small pistol cartridge than a large rifle cartridge!
Bernie
I've always cleaned the primer pockets of my rifle reloads, although I've been thinking about either skipping that step entirely for pistol rounds or maybe cleaning the pockets every few reloads. I've got an RCBS
Trim Mate Case Prep Center that I've used for a couple of years but I'll tell ya', it's quite a bit different task holding a small pistol cartridge than a large rifle cartridge!
Bernie
ReloaderFred
Member
Bernie,
I took an old variable speed hand drill that I bought at a yard sale for $2.00 and made a mount for it. It's held in a horizontal position on my bench, with the chuck facing me. I make my primer pocket brushes from that plastic covered 1/8" and 3/16" cable they sell at the hardware store. I just cut off a piece of the cable about 1 1/2" long and skin back about 1/4" of the plastic sheath. Then I dress the end on a grinding wheel so it's smooth.
With my homemade brushes mounted in the drill chuck, it's just above waist level. I can hold about half a dozen handgun cases at a time and just touch them to the brush with the drill at it's slowest setting. This removes the loose debris from the pockets.
I can do about 1,500 + pistol rounds in less than an hour with this method. I just have an Akro bin full of dirty primer pocket brass on the right side of the drill and an empty Akro bin on the left side. I pick up a handful of brass, align them between my left thumb and forefinger, then touch each one to the brush. Then I just drop them in the bin on my left and repeat. It takes less time to do it than to tell you how it's done.
Just something to consider for cleaning large numbers of primer pockets. I mounted the drill to a 10" x 10" square of 3/4" plywood and just clamp it to the bench. When I don't need it, I store in on a shelf, out of the way. I have several loading tools mounted this way and it makes better use of bench space that way.
Hope this helps.
Fred
I took an old variable speed hand drill that I bought at a yard sale for $2.00 and made a mount for it. It's held in a horizontal position on my bench, with the chuck facing me. I make my primer pocket brushes from that plastic covered 1/8" and 3/16" cable they sell at the hardware store. I just cut off a piece of the cable about 1 1/2" long and skin back about 1/4" of the plastic sheath. Then I dress the end on a grinding wheel so it's smooth.
With my homemade brushes mounted in the drill chuck, it's just above waist level. I can hold about half a dozen handgun cases at a time and just touch them to the brush with the drill at it's slowest setting. This removes the loose debris from the pockets.
I can do about 1,500 + pistol rounds in less than an hour with this method. I just have an Akro bin full of dirty primer pocket brass on the right side of the drill and an empty Akro bin on the left side. I pick up a handful of brass, align them between my left thumb and forefinger, then touch each one to the brush. Then I just drop them in the bin on my left and repeat. It takes less time to do it than to tell you how it's done.
Just something to consider for cleaning large numbers of primer pockets. I mounted the drill to a 10" x 10" square of 3/4" plywood and just clamp it to the bench. When I don't need it, I store in on a shelf, out of the way. I have several loading tools mounted this way and it makes better use of bench space that way.
Hope this helps.
Fred
9teenEleven
Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2009
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Fred, instead of milling the shell holder, could you have taken a few thousandths off the bottom of the resizing die?
ReloaderFred
Member
I could have, but sizing dies are expensive and shellholders are cheap. Shellholders are also easier to work on, and if I messed one up, I would only be out a couple of dollars.
I much prefer to alter a shellholder, rather than a die.
Hope this helps.
Fred
I much prefer to alter a shellholder, rather than a die.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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