Lee factory crimp changes OAL

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rmurfster

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OK, so I get the Lee seating die set perfectly at 1.213" and when I put the final crimp on using the Lee Factory Crimp Die, my OAL changes! The weird thing is that my OAL is usually longer after the final crimp.

Anyone else experience this?
 
How much? I don't have a Lee FCD but it doesn't surprise me. The extra material your are compressing has got to go somewhere. Wouldn't expect more than .003 (some small amount). You might be crimping too much and squeezing the bullet out?
 
If properly set the FCD won't change OAL. Back off on the knob a little at a time until OAL stays constant and you still get correct crimp.

It's more likely that you have the whole die set a little too deep.

I use FCDs on 4 different handgun calibers, two with taper crimps and two with roll crimps and experience no change in OAL.
 
I haven't seen this. I set my OAL with the seater die and then I crimp. I will change from RN to FP and the FCD has never changed my OAL.
Rusty
 
Thanks for all the replies!

<Is this a roll or taper> - It is a .45 ACP die, so taper.

I think my problem is that I was crimping too much. I measured a .460 crimp :(

Figured out that I should be crimping from .469 - .471. I think this has helped my OAL to stay consistent.

FYI, what started me down this path was that I had 3 failures with this load, 1 FTE, 1 FTL and 1 that my extractor failed to catch. I think my taper had something to do with this.
 
I'm glad you got it straightened out. I didn't do any measuring to set up my die. The way I set it up was to put a empty brass into the shell holder. Run it all the way into the FCD. Turn the top of the FCD until I can feel it touch the case. Then i backed out the case and gave the FCD another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. All you want to do is get rid of the bell from the powder through die and make the case straight again.
Rusty
 
So what determines if its a roll or taper is the type of ammo it loads? If the die is for a 38 the lee factory crimp will be a roll, but if it's for a 9mm it will be a taper?

Thanks in advace.

Lovesbeer99
 
The amount of crimp is determined by how far the knob is screwed in. Usually for a taper crimp you only screw it in 1/4-1/2 turn. For a roll crimp you go further, maybe even one turn for the crimp on a heavy round like a .357 mag or .44 mag. Experiment with the setting.

Just follow the directions that came with your dies. The are pretty straightforward.
 
Lovesbeer99,

If the cartridge is head spaced on the case mouth, then it must be taper crimped. If the cartridge head spaces off the rim or shoulder, then a roll crimp can be used, typically using bullets with a cannelure (crimping groove).

Most straight wall, rimless pistol cartridges are taper crimped (because they head space on the case mouth), including .380, 9mm lugar and makarov, 40s&w, 45acp, etc, and use bullets without a cannelure.

Andy
 
Interesting topic. The US Military has done extensive testing on the effect of crimping on accuracy. Lee advertises that their factory crimp die enhances accuracy. The military tests indicate otherwise. Therefore, crimping may not be a good idea to be universally done to every round of ammunition the handloader assembles. If you don't believe me, search the web for sites addressing bullet crimping or some similar topic.

When is a crimp needed? With Revolver ammunition to prevent bullet creep from recoil which could lock up the cylinder. Typically done with a roll crimp built into most seating dies.

With autoloader ammunition (pistol and rifle) to prevent bullet setback when it is being "slammed" into the chamber. Since pistols typically headspace on the case mouth, a taper crimp must be used. Again, typically built into the seating die. Since most autoloading rifles are bottlenecks which headspace on the shoulder, type of crimp is not critical.

One other situation requires crimping.....Firearms with tubular magazines such as the Winchester 94 where bullet setback could result from the compressed magazine spring putting pressure on all of the rounds in the tube.

Bolt action rifles. Crimp not needed and maybe detrimental to accuracy. Therefore, in most cases and IMHO, the Lee factory crimp die is a waste of money. I have one in my entire inventory. It is .30-30, which I actually only load for my nephew. While I own a Model 94 that was made in 1963 (the last of the pre-64s), it sits in the back of my gun safe and retains its virginity, having never been fired. A lot of factory ammunition is "factory crimped," but only because there are many autoloaders out there in the popular calibers, e.g., .223, .243, .308, .30-06, etc., and ammo manufacturers cannot assume it will be fired in bolt actions rather than autos.
 
Interesting topic. The US Military has done extensive testing on the effect of crimping on accuracy. Lee advertises that their factory crimp die enhances accuracy. The military tests indicate otherwise. Therefore, crimping may not be a good idea to be universally done to every round of ammunition the handloader assembles.
When is a crimp needed? With Revolver ammunition to prevent bullet creep from recoil which could lock up the cylinder. Typically done with a roll crimp built into most seating dies.

With autoloader ammunition (pistol and rifle) to prevent bullet setback when it is being "slammed" into the chamber. Since pistols typically headspace on the case mouth, a taper crimp must be used.

One other situation requires crimping.....Firearms with tubular magazines such as the Winchester 94 where bullet setback could result from the compressed magazine spring putting pressure on all of the rounds in the tube.

Bolt action rifles. Crimp not needed and maybe detrimental to accuracy. Therefore, in most cases and IMHO, the Lee factory crimp die is a waste of money. I have one in my entire inventory. It is .30-30, which I actually only load for my nephew. While I own a Model 94 that was made in 1963 (the last of the pre-64s), it sits in the back of my gun safe and retains its virginity, having never been fired. A lot of factory ammunition is "factory crimped," but only because there are many autoloaders out there in the popular calibers, e.g., .223, .243, .308, .30-06, etc., and ammo manufacturers cannot assume it will be fired in bolt actions rather than autos.

Which military tests indicate otherwise, and what firearm was used in this test? I'd have to re-visit Hatcher but I don't belive he said anything about crimp being detrimential. We agree that crimping is not best in all situations.

That said, the factory crimp die for cases that headspace on the casemouth are a taper crimp - but also provide post sizing should it be necessary. Therefore, it's just a better option in my opinion. Additionally, I like it because if I change bullet profiles, you can do so on the standard seating die without having to readjust crimp - simply make the depth change with the adjustment knob and move on because the fcd doesn't care about seating depth. It's also less sensitive to differences in case length. Since we are on the subject, I would also argue that many cases don't actually "headspace" on the casemouth but are held to a great degree at the right position by the extractor. As to revolver cases - again, I prefer using a die specifically meant to do the best job of it, but don't deny that the standard seating die does a more than adequate job of a roll crimp. BTW - I'm sure you are aware that if you put too much crimp with the standard seating die on a case meant to headspace on the casemouth - it will turn to a roll crimp, it's just part of the crimp shoulder.

I think we agree about the benefit of crimping on tubular magazines, but I prefer using a die that is meant to do a better job of it. The rifle fcd crimps at the top .060 of the case (read that in an article) and again, not nearly as effected by case length as the standard seating die.

We agree about crimping for bolt action rifels except for hunting purposes. However, I don't think you'll get an argument from Lee either as their dead lengh bullet seater that comes with their collet dies sets are designed for bolt action or single shot rifles and make no provision for crimping.

As to accuracy - I think the jury is out. There is something to be said for uniform start pressures and more consistant velocities with less standard deviation that comes from using a factory crimp die - unless it's overdone. However, I don't use them for use in my bolt rifles either. The old warning from Speer is just because they were owned by the same company that owned RCBS for quite some time - what did anyone expect in regard to their competition.
 
I think your wasting too much time measuring. Use your caliper to check the OAL and make sure it is below maximum or near recommended for data that has that information. Set your crimp visually, check your round in the chamber of a revolver cylinder or a removed semi auto barrel. Toss the caliper back in its box and leave it there untill the next time you change components. Take your ammo to the range and test it there. You don't need anywhere near the precision you are talking about to produce accurate ammo.
 
Thanks for all the responses, and sorry for hijacking the thread. I understand the difference between the roll and taper and the associations with headspacing in revo's and autos (at least in theory as I have been reading, but have not tried it yet). My question is around the Lee die itself.
So basically it will taper or roll depending on how you set it up.

But is this extra die worth the effort if I can already perform the crimp with the seating die? What is the advantage of this tool and extra 4th step?

Thanks
Lovesbeer99
 
Not quite - set up properly, the fcd for revolver cartridges give a roll crimp by default where the fcd for cases that headspace on the case mouth give a taper crimp. I'm simply saying that if the taper crimp die is set way too deep, it will also turn to a roll crimp.

Whether you want to use the fcd is a personal preference. I prefer them for most things and won't work without one when loading .357 Sig. However, I don't use for for my bolt rifles or many times when using lead on handgun cartridges as I don't want the lead sized with the carbide ring. I also don't use them for heavy crimps but do think the result is superior to the standard seating die. Again, personal preference - you should try one, then make an informed decision based on your own experience instead of listening to us.
 
If you use the Factory Crimp Die, you don't want to crimp with the bullet seating die. Insert a sized case and adjust the seating die down until it just touches the top of the case. Adjust the center part to seat the bullet to the proper depth.

I adjust the FCD die down until it makes shellplate contact, insert a finished round and adjust the center screw down until it contacts the case, then down another 1/2 turn. This is for autoloading pistols.

One of my videos shows how I adjust dies on a Load Master, 5:50 into this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFprUSI7WuM
 
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