RNFP issues

[Hondo 60]

I'm having a problem with seating/crimping some MBC Cowboy #4s.
They're 45 Colt LRNFP

I'm using a Lee 4 hole turret, with Lee dies. The first 3 dies I have set perfect.
1. Sizing/depriming is OK
2. Just a tiny bit of flare - just enough not to shave the bullet, powder drop is spot on.
3. Seating is just fine - OAL 1.599 - 1.602 (I want 1.600) so this is fine.
4. Is the crimp die; here's the problem child!

I want a firm roll crimp. If I get any crimp it's pushing the bullet further into the case.
To get a half way decent crimp it's changing the OAL to 1.580.
The more I lighten the crimp, the longer the OAL. I've tried adjusting the die in the turret & tried adjusting the screw-in part of the die itself to no avail.


Brad - I hope you don't mind I stole your pic to help show the seating area on the bullet.

Any suggestions? Thanks for your help, you guys always come through for me, and I certainly appreciate it!

 

[ReloaderFred]

I load the Magma 200 gr. RNFP .45 Colt bullet for my Marlin 1894 Cowboy, which is what this bullet is. I have no issues with the crimp using the Lee Factory Crimp Die. I've also used the RCBS crimping die without issues.

I don't understand how the crimping die is changing the OAL of the loaded round. It should just be rolling the mouth of the case into a crimp.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[243winxb]

Lee Instruction for Pistol FCD

From Lee's link below.

Carbide Factory Crimp explanation

While the bullet seating die that comes with the die set will apply a crimp to the case, there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped. There is no provision for seating the bullet with the Factory Crimp Die.

The type of crimp on the die depends upon the type of cartridge. With cases that headspace on the case mouth such as the 45ACP, the die essentially reduces the outer diameter of the case mouth into the bullet. On other cases, a roll crimp is applied.

The degree of crimp is adjusted by how far down the knob on the top of the die is turned in. The proper setting for this die is with the adjustment knob turned all the way up, turn the die into the press until it touches the shell plate or shell holder which should be in the raised position. Then, raise an empty case into the die and begin to turn the knob inward until you feel it stop on the top of the case. Another 1/2 turn will apply a good crimp and you can adjust from there to suit your specific need.

good luck

 

[Hondo 60]

243 - Yup, that's how I set it up in the first place & I'm still having problems.
I also have loaded Hornady XTP, 200gr & 250 gr, with no problems.
It's just the lead bullets that are being a problem

I wish I lived closer to Lee. I'd take my stuff there & have them do their magic.
But I live 1 1/2 hrs away. (I know, that's a lot closer than most.)


By the way, I also reload .38spl, 357mag & 223 rem.
So I know how to set the dies.

 

[Walkalong]

Somehow the nose is hitting the adjustment stem for the amount of crimp and getting pushed down. Wrong stem?

 

[Hondo 60]

Well, I just reset the die again & still having the same issue.

I backed the stem out & backed the die out.
I raised the ram & screwed the die back in til it touched.
Tightened it down w/o moving the die.
Lowered the ram, put in an empty case & raised it up.
Turned the stem in til it touched the case, gave it an extra 1/2 turn.
Nice roll crimp on an empty case.

Made 1 round - OAL at 1.600 coming out of the seating die (I pulled & measured).
Put it back in & crimped it. - good roll crimp - OAL at 1.575.

 

[mdi]

Are you using a Lee Factory Crimp Die? If so the sizing ring may be pushing the bullet a bit deeper as it sizes the case. My roll crimps are done with the case mouth right at the top of the crimp groove, so the rolling of the brass doesn't push the bullet deeper. FWIW in my revolvers I don't worry much about OAL, I want a good consistant roll crimp.

 

[LiveLife]

If I have any issue with seating/crimping, I disassemble the seater/crimp die and check to see if it is clean without any crud inside (bullet lube, etc.) and that stem moves freely.

 

[ripdog]

you might want to try another die if you can find one..it may be slightly tight above the crimp collet which may contact the driving band and shorten up your oal

 

[Maj Dad]

Are you crimping into the crimp groove?

 

[noylj]

Separate seating from crimping.
This is the only time that trimming straightwall cases makes sense. You need a roll crimp, and that means that all cases should be the same length. The bullet needs to be seated so the case mouth is half way up the crimp groove. If you are using a seating die for the crimp, remove the seating stem. Place a case with the bullet in the shell holder and raise the ram. Turn the crimp die down until it contacts the case. Lower the ram and turn the die in 1/2 turn. Raise the ram to roll crimp the case. Inspect the crimp—lower the die body for more crimp and raise the die body for less.
DO not crimp with the seating stem in the die unless you are performing the seating and crimping simultaneously. The seating stem is only for bullet seating and the die body is only for crimping.
If you want to perform the two functions at the same time, you need to create one or two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer). Place bullet on a case that has been sized and expanded/belled (no powder or primer) and place the assembly in the shell holder. Screw the seating stem all the up the die and remove it if possible. Screw the die body down until it contact the case. Turn the die body up 2 full turns and turn the lock ring down to hold the die body in place. Now screw in the seating stem until it contacts the bullets. Lower the ram and screw the seating stem in 2 full turns. Raise the ram and seat the bullet. Measure the COL (OAL) and adjust the seating stem until the case mouth covers 1/2 of the crimp groove in the bullet.
Now, screw the seating stem all the way up the die (and remove if possible). You are now going to crimp. Raise the ram so the dummy round is all the way up into the die. Turn the die body down until it contacts the case mouth. Lower the ram a little and turn the die body in 1/2 turn. Raise the ram and crimp the dummy round. Inspect the crimp and adjust the die body until you have the crimp you want. Insert the dummy into the cylinder of your gun and be sure it fits.
Now you have a dummy round or two that you can use to set the seating die whenever you are loading that bullet.
Turn the die body up a turn or two, insert the dummy round into the die, turn the die down until it contacts the dummy round. Turn the lock ring down and lock the die in that position. Now, turn the seating stem down until it contacts the bullet. Turn the seating stem lock ring down and lock the stem in that position. You are now ready to seat and crimp simultaneously.

 

[RidgwayCO]

What happens if you seat the bullet to 1.620" and then crimp with the FCD? Just a suggestion...

 

[243winxb]

If the bullet diameter is correct at .452" - .451" above and below the crimping groove, then i would guess you have a bad FCD. You can seat & roll crimp with the other die in the set, till Lee sends you a replacement, as i am sure you already know.

 

[Hondo 60]

What happens if you seat the bullet to 1.620" and then crimp with the FCD? Just a suggestion...

It crimps at 1.620

Separate seating from crimping.

As I explained on post #1

3. Seating is just fine - OAL 1.599 - 1.602 (I want 1.600) so this is fine.
4. Is the crimp die; here's the problem child!

Are you crimping into the crimp groove?

yes

Somehow the nose is hitting the adjustment stem for the amount of crimp and getting pushed down. Wrong stem?

that's possible, but not likely as the XTP bullets crimp just fine. How would I check?

you might want to try another die if you can find one...

I don't have another 45 Colt FCD. (and don't know of anyone else who has one.

If I have any issue with seating/crimping, I disassemble the seater/crimp die and check to see if it is clean without any crud inside (bullet lube, etc.) and that stem moves freely.

Good thought - I pulled it apart & it was full of crud. It had me very hopeful. No such luck though. I put it back in & still have the same issue.



I think I'll just call Lee on Monday.

 

[788Ham]

OR, spend another $7.00 and but an Lee Factory Crimp Die ! I don't like the crimp that's applied on most of the rounds I load for, .223, .357, .44 mag. 30-06, .300 Savage. I bought one of Lee's FCD'd for each, and I'm totally satisfied with the crimp now, give it a try. Your anger and frustration is worth trying, not?

 

[RidgwayCO]

OK, let me see if I've got this straight:

1) If you seat the bullet to 1.600", then after crimping as a separate step with a Lee FCD, you have a COL of 1.580",

2) But if you seat the bullet to 1.620", then after crimping as a separate step with a Lee FCD, you have a COL of 1.620".

These two facts together tell me that there should be a seating depth somewhere between 1.620" and 1.600" where the COL after crimping as a separate step with the Lee FCD is 1.600". You just have to find it with trial and error.

 

[Hondo 60]

RidgwayCO - I think what's happening is that the ring is catching on the upper limit of the crimp groove & pulling it down to 1.580.

I tried raising the OAL just a bit when seating but it's either too far or not far enough.
There seems to be no happy medium.

788Ham - I have a Lee Factory Crimp Die - that's the one that's giving me all the trouble.
And I'm not sure what you mean about $7.00, the FCD costs more than $7.


I'm gonna call Lee on Monday.

 

[243winxb]

Check the expander, maybe its to large. Should measure about .450" The lead might not have as much friction on the case wall as the jacketed bullets. Can you push the lead bullet into the case with your thumb before crimping? If so, the sizing die has to size down the case enough so the expander can open the neck area to the correct diameter.

 

[ripdog]

can you see any deformation or marks on the driving band??

 

[GP100man]

As stated by RidgewayCO the hard roll is pulling the bullet into the case .

If this is where the crimp wants to go there ain`t alot ya can do `bout it except change styles of bullet.

 

[Seedtick]

Hondo,

I have the exact same setup as you do (press, die set, and bullet) and the FCD also pulls the bullet deeper into the case. The difference is that mine stops at 1.600 with a nice heavy crimp.

The COAL varies some coming out of the seating die but if it comes out a little longer the crimp die pulls it down to 1.600. I think it's kinda handy. My thinking is that the die crimp is aligning itself with the angle of the crimp groove in the bullet and setting it home.

This doesn't happen on my 38/357 setup but I'm not putting quite as much crimp on those. Maybe that's why??

Hope you get it figured out.

ST