Lee Pro 6000 Case Feed Issue

[Stefan A]

I am having problems with the case feed through and would like some advice. 2 main problems. First, when I get down to 1-4 cases left in the tube, a case will drop onto the slider but then tip over. Either the case just falls to the floor, or it moves forward of the guide and then I get a double feed. This is pretty consistent and is really frustrating me. Of course, everything has to stop and I have to clean it up. The other issue is that occasionally the case does not get pushed all the way onto the shell plate. If I manage to notice in time, I can just set it correctly. But sometimes I don't notice it and I end up screwing up the case mouth. It's trashed when that happens.

 

[LiveLife]

First, when I get down to 1-4 cases left in the tube, a case will drop onto the slider but then tip over. Either the case just falls to the floor, or it moves forward of the guide and then I get a double feed. This is pretty consistent

We discussed this issue under the heading of "Case feeding is not smooth and/or ejects cases" in the "Troubleshooting and Solutions" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-oal-consistency.911743/page-17#post-12550748

I would first verify that case feeder is installed properly with penny's thickness below the bottom of feeder and top of case mouth and same thickness clearance of case feeder away from the press body. Then slowly actuate the case slider with ram lever while watching the case to see if case slides into shellplate smoothly.

If case feeder alignment/clearance is not proper, case mouth could snag on bottom of case rim or tip against shellplate opening at transition from slide ramp. If there is something else with the press that's not allowing smooth movement of the case slider (Like FCD sticking discussed below ), you may end up with jerky case slider movement that ends up tipping the case over. With case feeder properly installed and no obstruction snagging the sliding case, cases should feed down to the last case.

The other issue is that occasionally the case does not get pushed all the way onto the shell plate

Apply the suggestions mentioned above and see if that helps with case not entering fully into shellplate issue. If problem continues, slowly operate the ram lever to see where the case is snagging/what's preventing the case from entering the shellplate fully.

 

[Stefan A]

Here is what's going on with the cases dropping. I do have it set for a penny thickness in both places you mention.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Here is what's going on with the cases dropping.

I haven't had that happen on my Pro 6K as I've only loaded .45ACP so far...no cases as tall as .38Spl.

It looks like the first case is bouncing as it hits the rail, but the upper case comes down too fast for it to right itself. I saw something on YouTube where a user put up a swinging gate to hold the case against the case-slider...but didn't pay too much attention as I hadn't encounter the issue

 

[LiveLife]

Here is what's going on with the cases dropping

I slowed the video down to 25% of playback speed and at 0:53 seconds of video, what I am seeing is top case hanging/dangling without dropping down fully and swinging to knock the case neck of bottom case causing the dropped bottom case to tip over.

Normally, top case would apply continuous downward pressure on the dropped case to hold it upright.

So I would check to see what the case is hanging inside the feed tube/case feeder.

 

[R44 flyer]

Here is what's going on with the cases dropping. I do have it set for a penny thickness in both places you mention.

I bet the 4 tube cylinder is too far away from the frame. A top down view try to keep the cylinder as close as possible to the frame.

 

[Stefan A]

I haven't had that happen on my Pro 6K as I've only loaded .45ACP so far...no cases as tall as .38Spl.

It looks like the first case is bouncing as it hits the rail, but the upper case comes down too fast for it to right itself. I saw something on YouTube where a user put up a swinging gate to hold the case against the case-slider...but didn't pay too much attention as I hadn't encounter the issue

Yeah, I have seen that video. Thanks

I slowed the video down to 25% of playback speed and at 0:53 seconds of video, what I am seeing is top case hanging/dangling without dropping down fully and swinging to knock the case neck of bottom case causing the dropped bottom case to tip over.

Normally, top case would apply continuous downward pressure on the dropped case to hold it upright.

So I would check to see what the case is hanging inside the feed tube/case feeder.

I am not seeing any hanging - the top case is definitely resting on the bottom case. I think the force of the 1st case dropping, combined with the lack of weight from the above cases, is causing the case to bounce and drop. Then the next case drops down. This never happens when the magazine is full.

I bet the 4 tube cylinder is too far away from the frame. A top down view try to keep the cylinder as close as possible to the frame.

I have tried various positioning of the plate. In this video, it is about a penny thickness from the tool head. But, I have tried moving the plate further away. There is limited positioning that can be done in order to make it work at all.

Anyway, I have sent the video to Lee and I'll see what they say. They address this problem in their help files, but all they say is to make sure you are using the riser block for certain calibers - which I am. I spent a little time today trying to re-position the plate. I had a bit more success moving it further from the tool head. But only a bit.

 

[LiveLife]

I am not seeing any hanging - the top case is definitely resting on the bottom case.

No, here's the "root cause analysis" of your situation.

Adjust the playback speed to 0.25 (25% of normal) and watch closely in full screen mode from 0:53 to 0:54 seconds of video (I had to watch several times and actually stopped the playback at 0:53 second to catch the case hanging up from dropping).

Around 0:53 second of video, you can definitely see case had dropped but the next case while dropping hung up momentarily and swings to knock the dropped case over.

Since the "root cause" of case tipping is next case hanging up and swinging to knock the dropped case, you now need to investigate what's causing the next case to hang up ... Could be a lip inside the case feed tube/case feeder ... that's what I would be looking for.

Examine the case feed tube/case feeder and report back what you find.

 

[Stefan A]

No, here's the "root cause analysis" of your situation.

Adjust the playback speed to 0.25 (25% of normal) and watch closely in full screen mode from 0:53 to 0:54 seconds of video (I had to watch several times and actually stopped the playback at 0:53 second to catch the case hanging up from dropping).

Around 0:53 second of video, you can definitely see case had dropped but the next case while dropping hung up momentarily and swings to knock the dropped case over.

Since the "root cause" of case tipping is next case hanging up and swinging to knock the dropped case, you now need to investigate what's causing the next case to hang up ... Could be a lip inside the case feed tube/case feeder ... that's what I would be looking for.

Examine the case feed tube/case feeder and report back what you find.

What you are seeing is the bottom of the top case resting on the tipped over rim of the bottom case. At the slow speed, the movement of the top case does look to be hanging and swinging because of the unnatural looking movement at such a low speed. But, nevertheless, I took the part off and examined it very carefully. Everything is perfectly symmetrical and smooth inside. I ran a lightly oiled patch through it just to slick it up and clean any possible grit (it was clean).

 

[LiveLife]

What you are seeing is the bottom of the top case resting on the tipped over rim of the bottom case

That's what I thought at first but if you watch more carefully, there's a brief momentary hanging of case on top that causes the swing of the rim to knock the bottom case mouth to tipping it over.

But, nevertheless, I took the part off and examined it very carefully. Everything is perfectly symmetrical and smooth inside. I ran a lightly oiled patch through it just to slick it up and clean any possible grit (it was clean).

Think about it.

If there's nothing that's "hanging up" the dropping of cases, then next case should simply be resting on case mouth of bottom case.

If we rule that out, then what could be happening is bottom case "bouncing off" the slide surface and colliding with the bottom of top case and tipping over from the collision, which may indeed be what could be happening.

BUT my point in conducting "root cause analysis" is not assuming anything but VERIFYING everything so we can start "ruling out" one thing after another to end up with true "root cause" of why the cases are tipping over.

That's my point I am trying to make ... To conduct the "root cause analysis" without prejudice of assumption.

ONLY when we TRULY have identified the CAUSE, can we work on RESOLUTION of the PROBLEM. (And believe me, I have learned this from my various myth busting threads ... assumptions, subjective opinions and even educated "WAG" don't apply when "myth busting" and/or conducting "root cause analysis" to get to the true cause of the problem.

I am simply sharing with you the proper approach to addressing reloading issues so you can always correctly and accurately identify the true cause to fix it permanently ... That's what we have done for the pre-2018 Pro 1000 thread and this SPP/Pro 6000 thread.

Were we wrong on some of our resolution approach?

Sure.

But for over four years, THR as a group kept focusing on the true underlying cause and eventually, we addressed all the issues to resolution. And I believe that's the hallmark of "High Road" approach to reloading.

And I did similar in "real world" approach to accurizing factory 10/22 to produce 1/2" groups at 50 yards using CCI SV (3/4" with Aguila 40 gr LRN/CPRN).

 

[LiveLife]

Of course, once we "rule out" hanging of case rim to knock the bottom case to tip over, then my next question would be, can you consistently reproduce the problem to better identify the cause?

So, refill the feed tubes and see if you can reproduce the tipping case problem with all four feed tubes and report back.

Things we are trying to isolate are:

• Are case rims getting hung up when down to last two cases in the feed tube
• Are second to last cases bouncing off the slide surface and being knocked over from collision with bottom of top cases

We experienced similar with Pro 1000 slide surface and some smoothed/polished the surface and when ABLP/Pro 4000 came with "consummable" polymer slide surface, I thought perhaps Lee was trying to address this issue. (But since we are back to solid metal slide surface with SPP/Pro 6000, we are resuming where we left off)

 

[wannabefree]

For what it is worth. I have had the same problem loading 38sp. I have tried every thing I could think of. Readjusted several times with no luck fixing the problem. It only happens when I get too the last few cases in the tube. I just learned to watch for it to happen and manually replace the case and move on. It is for sure annoying . I too have seen a couple of YouTube videos of re loaders fabricating a flapper device the eliminated the problem. Maybe some one or even Lee will make something like that available to those of us who are less qualified to fab our own.

 

[LiveLife]

I have had the same problem loading 38sp. I have tried every thing I could think of. Readjusted several times with no luck fixing the problem. It only happens when I get too the last few cases in the tub. I just learned to watch for it to happen and manually replace the case and move on. It is for sure annoying . I too have seen a couple of YouTube videos of re loaders fabricating a flapper device the eliminated the problem. Maybe some one of even Lee will make something like that available to those of us who are less qualified to fab our own.

And I believe that's why Lee Precision reached out to us end users and combined knowledgebase of THR as being used as beta testers.

My sentiment is John Lee likely has a pool of engineers/technicians working to resolve issues but perhaps noticed "Open Source" approach from users' point of view in resolving issues (Like we have for pre-2018 Pro 1000) could benefit product line improvement (Just look at how fast Lee updated to resolve SPP/Pro 6000 issues).

So when I encounter issues with any reloading equipment whether C-H, Dillon, FA, Hornady, Lee, Ohaus, RCBS, Redding, etc., I take the opportunity as a learning experience and do the mental exercise of, "What's causing the problem and what fixes/mods can address the issue?"

My tentative solution option is some kind of "bristles/fingers" to more gently lower the case to prevent bounce/collision with top case but haven't field tested it yet. Still in the "pondering" phase.

BTW, many complained about last three primers not feeding on SPP/Pro 6000 but I noticed on 2023 Pro 1000 primer feed chute/trough, I could flick the chute/trough to feed the last three primers. (I am "pondering" about some kind of flick system for SPP/Pro 6000 to feed the last three primers also)

 

[LiveLife]

Around 0:53 second of video, you can definitely see case had dropped but the next case while dropping hung up momentarily and swings to knock the dropped case over.

At the slow speed, the movement of the top case does look to be hanging and swinging because of the unnatural looking movement at such a low speed.

UPDATE: I am sorry but I just did frame-by-frame at 0.25 speed and paused the video multiple times and I am seeing bottom case tipping over BEFORE hitting the slide surface. So to me, falling action of top case is tipping the bottom case over before the rim of bottom case hits the slide surface.

 

[LiveLife]

OK, I screen captured different stages of case tipping and what appears to be a singular action is actually multiple actions happening very fast, especially blurring of video when slowed down and our brain "fills in the blank" as what appears as smooth "motion picture" is actually interpolated flashes of multiple still images and we "fill in the void" with our mind/brain to get the smooth motion.

At start of 0:53, bottom case is dropping from the case feeder (Note that case slider is NOT in contact with the dropping case as only gravity is at play with top case pushing down)



Sometime during 0:53, bottom case is already tipping as though almost "flicked" at case neck at high speed as case rim is contacting the slide surface (Case slider is still not in contact with bottom case)



Towards 0:54, bottom case is tipping with top case dropping down on top of tipped bottom case with rim of top case not in direct contact with tipping bottom case



Into 0:54, top case in the act of falling on top of tipping bottom case

 

[hoardingthemanual]

We need to get you a case of beer for all of this help, LiveLife.

 

[LiveLife]

UPDATE on case tipping:

What you are seeing is the bottom of the top case resting on the tipped over rim of the bottom case

If you look at the third screenshot in my previous post, rim of top case doesn't even contact the neck of bottom case until the bottom case has already tipped over.

So without examining the case feeder/slider in person and only referencing the slowed down video, I am leaning towards these:

• As case slider is pushed back by spring, friction with rim of bottom case is applying force to rim away from the press
• Force applied to the rim of bottom case may be applying tilting force on the case mouth towards the press
• As mouth of bottom case clears the case feeder, force applied to the rim is "flicking" the case to tip
• As bottom case tips without contact with falling top case, our brain "interprets" the action as induced by top case but in reality, it's the friction with case slider on rim of bottom case that may be causing the tipping

So if you slow down the ram lever to reduce friction force on the rim of bottom case as case starts to drop, tipping should be reduced or prevented.

 

[wannabefree]

Hmm. just a thought here. It seems the problem as I see it is that the feeder needs a certain amount of weight being pressed on the shell cases to avoid tipping. When the tube is fully loaded the many cases on top of each other provide ample weight or down pressure to stabilize the case being fed and holding the next one in place. So just thinking out loud, what if you place a weight perhaps a lead bullet or two with a string thru the middle so they would not fall out when the tube is empty. This would provide perhaps enough preloaded weight on the last few cases and solve the problem. Then just pull the weights out with the attached string and put it into the next tube above the last case. The string might need a stop attached at the end of the required travel to avoid falling thru when the last case is fed.

Maybe it would work , maybe not , Just Thinking
Dave

 

[GW Staar]

We had similar problems with the APP. There's three problems.....
1: The base of the .38/.357/.45 colt case bases have rims that stick out.
2: Then, coupled with that, for all except maybe the .45, the 9/16" tube is way too wide in diameter.
3: Lee thought it was a good idea to bevel the edge of the top of the slider where the bottom case rests before it falls to the shuttle's base....is wasn't. That only encourages the cases to tilt, which allows the next case to finish it off by falling on it.

The three combine to make the perfect storm and the longer the cases are the worse problem it is.

First: for .357/.38 cases, slide a 1/2" thinwall tube inside the Lee 9/16" stock tube. (that will stop the cases from tilting tilting too much in the tube as it falls, causing sideways pressure on the case below. Plus the inner tube removes the small ridge in there that further tilts cases inside.

Second: Then glue a thin piece of styrene sheet, shaped like the top surface of Lee's slider (sand the top flat first, because it isn't with the seam on top. Don't bevel the edge, but smooth the sharp edge to remove any sign of a ridge cause by the cut.

That worked great for me.

 

[Stefan A]

That's what I thought at first but if you watch more carefully, there's a brief momentary hanging of case on top that causes the swing of the rim to knock the bottom case mouth to tipping it over.


Think about it.

If there's nothing that's "hanging up" the dropping of cases, then next case should simply be resting on case mouth of bottom case.

If we rule that out, then what could be happening is bottom case "bouncing off" the slide surface and colliding with the bottom of top case and tipping over from the collision, which may indeed be what could be happening.

BUT my point in conducting "root cause analysis" is not assuming anything but VERIFYING everything so we can start "ruling out" one thing after another to end up with true "root cause" of why the cases are tipping over.

That's my point I am trying to make ... To conduct the "root cause analysis" without prejudice of assumption.

ONLY when we TRULY have identified the CAUSE, can we work on RESOLUTION of the PROBLEM. (And believe me, I have learned this from my various myth busting threads ... assumptions, subjective opinions and even educated "WAG" don't apply when "myth busting" and/or conducting "root cause analysis" to get to the true cause of the problem.

I am simply sharing with you the proper approach to addressing reloading issues so you can always correctly and accurately identify the true cause to fix it permanently ... That's what we have done for the pre-2018 Pro 1000 thread and this SPP/Pro 6000 thread.

Were we wrong on some of our resolution approach?

Sure.

But for over four years, THR as a group kept focusing on the true underlying cause and eventually, we addressed all the issues to resolution. And I believe that's the hallmark of "High Road" approach to reloading.

And I did similar in "real world" approach to accurizing factory 10/22 to produce 1/2" groups at 50 yards using CCI SV (3/4" with Aguila 40 gr LRN/CPRN).

Believe me, I am 100% appreciative of your efforts to help. I was just reporting what I was seeing and what my results were. I’m so happy that you are making such an effort to help me. I will conduct the tests you asked for later. Perhaps it will be helpful to make another video, but in slow motion. That should give more frames per second and less blur.

The idea of adding weight is a good one. I briefly thought about that, but didn’t develop the thought. I might try that too.

 

[LiveLife]

I will conduct the tests you asked for later

I think it would be prudent to try the easiest option first.

If speed/friction of case slider retracting is causing the second to last case to "flick and tip", perhaps slowing down ram lever a bit for last two cases for each feed tube may be the easiest solution.

 

[Stefan A]

So, refill the feed tubes and see if you can reproduce the tipping case problem with all four feed tubes and report back.

Things we are trying to isolate are:

• Are case rims getting hung up when down to last two cases in the feed tube
• Are second to last cases bouncing off the slide surface and being knocked over from collision with bottom of top cases

Trying to bring out my “inner livelife” here

I loaded each tube with 5 rounds. The 5th round, meaning fifth from last, never fell in any test. So, my numbering system is 5 4 3 2 1 with 5 being the first round to drop and 1 being the last in the tube. I won’t mention 5 because they all remained upright

Round 1
Tube 1
- 3 tipped over
- 2 came out with 3
-1 stayed upright, but almost fell out with 2

Tube 2
- 3 tipped over
- 2 came out with 3
- 1 fell over

Tube 3
- 3 tipped over
- 2 came out with 3
- 1 bounced, but stayed upright

Tube 4
- 4 dropped and slid up the ramp
- 3 came out with 4 and stayed upright
- 2 landed
- 1 landed

Round 2
Tube 1
- 4 slid all the way to the shell plate
- 3 tipped over and came out with 4
-2 dropped on top of 3
- 1 fell out when removing 2

Tube 2
- 3 fell off press
- 2 came out with 3 upright
- 1 stayed upright

Tube 3
- 3 tipped over
- 2 came out with 3 upright
- 1 stayed upright

Tube 4
- 4 slid forward and tipped
- 3 came out crooked with 4
- 2 slid forward
- came out with 1
So, this was a quadruple feed - all 4 came out at once.

 

[LiveLife]

 

[Stefan A]

I’m going to try making a heavy dummy round and place it on top

Lee suggested moving the spring/screw to the hole at the end of the feeder. Also making sure the feed plate is 3/16” from the tool head. Both those things were done for my testing.

 

[GW Staar]

I know you guys don't believe me, but I still think the too big tubing and too big openings that open too soon and allow sideways movement....cause this. Look at the APP video before I corrected it.....look familiar?

And look at the difference once I closed off all that sideways movement with smaller tubes and holes that prevented sideways movement of the case next in line.

I used same fixes when I made my 6000 drop tubes and finally got them to work. As for the four way on the APP (before I got into collaters and 3D printing, I use wrap around extenders under the four way that does the same thing.....looking for a picture.