Legal authority for "commandeering" property?

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Jadecristal

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From an AP article (excerpt here lifted from WP: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090101125.html)

NEW ORLEANS -- Managers at two French Quarter hotels teamed up to hire 10 buses to carry their 500 guests to safer ground, but federal officials commandeered the vehicles and told the guests to go to the convention center with other evacuees, one of the managers said.

Peter Ambros, general manager of Astor Hotel at Astor Crowne Plaza, said Thursday the guests had been waiting on the street for the buses for more than four hours Wednesday night.

"We kept hearing they were coming, they were coming," said guest Bill Hedrick, a Houston oilman who was with family including his mother-in-law, who uses a walker.

He said he and the others had paid $45 a seat. When the crowd learned the buses would never arrive, "everyone was totally stunned," Hedrick said.

People were disappointed and angry, too _ but not violent, he said.

Hedrick, who had moved to the New Orleans Convention Center along with Ambros and many of the other guests, had harsh words Thursday for city officials, who he said were focused on helping residents. "The tourists here are an afterthought," he said.

Lauren Helvie, 25, said her SUV was commandeered by police.

Helvie parked her Toyota Forerunner in the garage at the Ritz Carlton hotel in the French Quarter during the storm and returned to retrieve it Thursday. But police told her she wouldn't be getting her car.

"They said, 'What kind of car is it? A Forerunner? Then for sure you're not getting it back,'" Helvie said.

The police officer didn't explain anything to her, but she said the hotel manager told her police were using her car and others like it to evacuate elderly and ill out of the city.

Sooo... they take your stuff, for the "greater good." Despite my personal feelings on such things ( :cuss: :banghead: :fire: ), is it legal? Or is this just back to "there is no law right now?" Other comments on this?

Jadecristal
 
Louisiana statutes allow authorities to requisition what they need during emergencies. Yes, what they did was legal.


Wisconsin has a similar law. It allows authorities to "take, use and destroy private property for emergency management purposes." See Wisconsin Chapter 166.03.
 
They said, 'What kind of car is it? A Forerunner? Then for sure you're not getting it back,'" Helvie said.

The police officer didn't explain anything to her, but she said the hotel manager told her police were using her car and others like it to evacuate elderly and ill out of the city.

It might be legal in LA, but its not right IMO. I wonder if the vehicle is damaged from police use, if the Police Dept will repair it, since they borrowed it. :banghead:
 
It's a car. Get over it. File an insurance claim and get on with your life. It's no different than if they "commandeered" chainsaws and crowbars from a hardware store to help get people out who are trapped in their homes.
 
It's a car. Get over it.
What if I NEED that car to get the hell out of there? I may have filled it with all the necessities for long-term bugout. Over my dead body. If they tried, I would empty a mag into the engine. Then they can do whatever they want with it. How is this any different from the scum on the street trying to steal my supplies?
 
It's a car. Get over it. File an insurance claim and get on with your life. It's no different than if they "commandeered" chainsaws and crowbars from a hardware store to help get people out who are trapped in their homes.
Today 03:01 PM

BryanP,

If that car is what could get your family out of that cess pool to safety, would you just "get over it"? Would you just slog along through the waist deep waters and hope the released prisoners don't hurt you, or some of the looters dont decide to loot you? Would you rather drive your car out of NO, or hike to the Superdome and hang out with an angry mob that has no food, water or sanitation that seems to like rioting and starting fires? Maybe you can catch a bus to houston then, right? I am sure the reports of assaults, sexual and otherwise are over blown. I mean the cops will protect you, right? Oh wait, didn't they go around and tell people that they emptied the jails and everyone was on their own? Yeah. Its just a car. Get over it.

This is not a hypothetical, this is real life SHTF for these people, and you are advising to turn over their means of survival?
 
If they asked for my car I'd laugh in their faces and tell them to get lost. If they didn't like it I would have no problem with using deadly force to protect myself and my property, even against police officers.
 
Safety of my family vs. anybody else

First off, let's assume that I was enough of an imbicile to stick around NO when the news had been harping about Katrina for over a week. Now that the devastation is in full swing you want me to give up my vehicle to help someone else get out? I've got me, my wife and my son. I'd be willing to take as many as my vehicle would carry, but why should I stay behind while my vehicle carries others to safety?
 
If they asked for my car I'd laugh in their faces and tell them to get lost. If they didn't like it I would have no problem with using deadly force to protect myself and my property, even against police officers.

I actually think vulgar displays of corruption and tyranny are good. Many sheeple who might otherwise have been content to chew their cud now have to digest the fact that they saw police officers acting like common criminals. And ponder responses other than compliance.
 
Safety of my family vs. anybody else

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First off, let's assume that I was enough of an imbicile to stick around NO when the news had been harping about Katrina for over a week. Now that the devastation is in full swing you want me to give up my vehicle to help someone else get out? I've got me, my wife and my son. I'd be willing to take as many as my vehicle would carry, but why should I stay behind while my vehicle carries others to safety?
+1
 
It's a car. Get over it. File an insurance claim and get on with your life.

Try it like this:

It's a GUN. Get over it. File an insurance claim and get on with your life.

Either way it's your personal property that you had to keep you safe and help with your survival. Each individual will have to make their own decision about how they handle the situation. Me? I opt for my family's best chance for survival.
 
First off, let's assume that I was enough of an imbicile to stick around NO when the news had been harping about Katrina for over a week. Now that the devastation is in full swing you want me to give up my vehicle to help someone else get out? I've got me, my wife and my son. I'd be willing to take as many as my vehicle would carry, but why should I stay behind while my vehicle carries others to safety?

On the other hand, you stuck around when you should have left and now you are the state's problem. Who better to foot the bill to take care of the idiots who stayed behind than themselves?
 
Car Dealerships?

My original post remains valid, even if the idiot in question remained in NO. If a vehicle can carry X number of people, why should the owner and family not be in that number? Why aren't we seeing car dealerships being commandeered? Boat dealerships?
 
Besides the legal question, I'm wondering something else.

Managers at two French Quarter hotels teamed up to hire 10 buses to carry their 500 guests to safer ground

If hotel managers can hire a bus, why hasn't FEMA already hired the same bus? If FEMA is not the right agency, the who is in charge there? Maybe that's what matters.
 
nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
As much as I dislike it, even I'd have to argue that seizing vehicles and other supplies for managing an emergency on this scale probably counts as public use.

That's not to say I'd necessarily comply, though. I'd probably have organized the crowd and issued rifles to keep our hired buses, at least until we got out of the city.

From http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/42309.html:
Three days ago, police and national guard troops told citizens to head toward the Crescent City Connection Bridge to await transportation out of the area. The citizens trekked over to the Convention Center and waited for the buses which they were told would take them to Houston or Alabama or somewhere else, out of this area.

It's been 3 days, and the buses have yet to appear.

Although obviously he has no exact count, he estimates more than 10,000 people are packed into and around and outside the convention center still waiting for the buses. They had no food, no water, and no medicine for the last three days, until today, when the National Guard drove over the bridge above them, and tossed out supplies over the side crashing down to the ground below. Much of the supplies were destroyed from the drop. Many people tried to catch the supplies to protect them before they hit the ground. Some offered to walk all the way around up the bridge and bring the supplies down, but any attempt to approach the police or national guard resulted in weapons being aimed at them.

There are many infants and elderly people among them, as well as many people who were injured jumping out of windows to escape flood water and the like -- all of them in dire straights.

Any attempt to flag down police results in being told to get away at gunpoint. Hour after hour they watch buses pass by filled with people from other areas. Tensions are very high, and there has been at least one murder and several fights. 8 or 9 dead people have been stored in a freezer in the area, and 2 of these dead people are kids.

The people are so desperate that they're doing anything they can think of to impress the authorities enough to bring some buses. These things include standing in single file lines with the eldery in front, women and children next; sweeping up the area and cleaning the windows and anything else that would show the people are not barbarians.

The buses never stop.

Before the supplies were pitched off the bridge today, people had to break into buildings in the area to try to find food and water for their families. There was not enough. This spurred many families to break into cars to try to escape the city. There was no police response to the auto thefts until the mob reached the rich area -- Saulet Condos -- once they tried to get cars from there... well then the whole swat teams began showing up with rifles pointed. Snipers got on the roof and told people to get back.

He reports that the conditions are horrendous. Heat, mosquitoes and utter misery. The smell, he says, is "horrific."

He says it's the slowest mandatory evacuation ever, and he wants to know why they were told to go to the Convention Center area in the first place; furthermore, he reports that many of them with cell phones have contacts willing to come rescue them, but people are not being allowed through to pick them up.
This is just another fine example of why nobody with a lick of sense would ever trust the government to get things right, especially in a crisis. If you want it done right, do it yourself: make your own plans, make sure they're set up in advance, and defend them when the looters--including the looters in the Mayor's ofice--try to take your provisions. You can always tell the driver to go back and help after you've been removed to safety.
 
As much as I dislike it, even I'd have to argue that seizing vehicles and other supplies for managing an emergency on this scale probably counts as public use.
And why should Joe Public, who couldn't care about preparing himself, and instead choose to spend his money on partying, that nice satellite disc that can recieve 3000+ channels, and other junk, benefit from the car that YOU bought with YOUR money, and that YOU planned to use to evacuate YOUR family?
 
In the case such as NOLA or other areas at the time of massive devastation and chaos prevail, what if you try to resist the taking of your vehicle, home, weapon because you are trying to use it to survive yourself? Can they then just beat and shoot you down to take command of it?
 
It's a GUN. Get over it. File an insurance claim and get on with your life.

I would.

Helvie parked her Toyota Forerunner in the garage at the Ritz Carlton hotel in the French Quarter during the storm and returned to retrieve it Thursday. But police told her she wouldn't be getting her car.

Seemingly ignored, but if had been sitting there till Thursday, they probably figured the owner wasn't coming back. Not quite the same as pulling a gun on a family as they were trying to leave.
 
And why should Joe Public, who couldn't care about preparing himself, and instead choose to spend his money on partying, that nice satellite disc that can recieve 3000+ channels, and other junk, benefit from the car that YOU bought with YOUR money, and that YOU planned to use to evacuate YOUR family?
I wasn't arguing morality; the question was "what is the legal authority?" A good legal case could be made for such condemnation. I'm not saying Joe Public has a right to it.

In the case such as NOLA or other areas at the time of massive devastation and chaos prevail, what if you try to resist the taking of your vehicle, home, weapon because you are trying to use it to survive yourself? Can they then just beat and shoot you down to take command of it?
They'd have to, I assure you. My .30-06 will even take care of the would-be strongarm robbers with the body armor. But after I and mine have evac'ed, I'll be happy to send it back for them to use, if they want to give me a receipt.
 
It comes down to "might makes right". If you're unarmed, and a group of armed government agents demand your car, it's "legal". If you and your family are armed, and there's a couple of them... the best they can do is ask. When told "No", they'll likely decide to head on down the road and commandeer another vehicle. Things being what they are, a couple of cops or FEMA people shot to death on the side of the road is pretty much going to remain "unsolved".
 
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