Legal sights for A2 service rifle?

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capt.hollis

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Can someone direct me to the right place to buy a set of decent legal sights for Hi Power A2 service rifle. They can't be folded right? I'm confused on what to get, and don't want to order the wrong ones.
 
Rock River Arms
Compass Lake
White Oak Armament/Precision
& some other have them.

I am not sure what you mean about folding. You can use a regular AR sights. The don't have to be match grade as a legal requirement. FSB & Rear can't be flip up (folding), because that's not A2. Flip up is not allowed on a flat top, but a carry handle is.

Now a match director might let you shoot a match & not be eligible to win or earn points. There is now the is a scoped category, which I know nothing about.
 
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No, for NM shooting the weapon has to be in the original military specification or appear to be in the original configuration. For an AR, I know you can put a FF tube under the regular round M16 style handguards, you can use a cut rifled stainless barrel, and you can use a two stage trigger that is designated "NM". You can also put varying amounts lead weights around the handguard and in the standard A1 or A2 buttstock (I think you can use an A1 buttstock). Add a shooting jacket, shooting glove, and a real fine leather sling that connects to the FF tube and buttstock and you are in business! You'll need the roll cart or folding seat to haul the various other stuff to easily and comfortably compete, but that is about it. Highly restricted like in NASCAR, I like it because it weeds out the gear advantage for the most part and makes for a competition based on the skill of the shooter. I believe the 20" HBAR (or perhaps a more conservative profile) cut rifled barrel in 1/7, firing 75-77gr. match, with a tunned RRA NM two stage trigger (it is quite nice once it has been tuned) built on a matched and otherwise mil spec chassis with A2 upper and JP Ent. small parts, and with the allowable FF tube and weights (if needed) would make a rifle most definitely suited to serious competition in this sport. This will be my build by the way when it ramps back up this Spring. I already have a lot of the parts, just got to get new ones for another rifle... Yeah, I'm a cannibal. But I've also shot this match before and built rifles for that and other purposes.

For the sights you seek, go search on Rainier Arms first. They are an AR superstore and do great work. If no luck, try Midway. Look under "gunsmith parts" or "AR parts" or whatever it is and find "NM sights" or something similar in that long list. There are also lesser known sight makers that make great NM sights too, so don't overlook those. JP Ent. is definitely worth looking at, but they tend to cater to 3gun mostly. However, I build my own AR's, and can say that from my experience, they make the best parts, especially the bolt carrier, LPK minus trigger, and the other small parts needed to complete an AR build. Phenomenal quality.

At any rate, you WANT the NM components. You don't NEED them, you can certainly shoot with standard AR irons, but the NM sights are worth it in my opinion for this kind of shooting as stock standard AR sights are quite loose. There isn't much you can do to these rifles to begin with, kind of like NACAR for rifle shooters. So for sights, that means the full rear sight, the drum, the leaves, aperature, all of it. If you don't know how, learn how by youtube, online, or in a book (I use all three when I do stuff I'm not familiar with) to properly change the parts out and how to put them back in to work best for what you are doing.

You can change these out on an A2 OR flat top with carry handle, but since movement is possible even when carefully loctiting the mil spec carry handle down, it is advisable, and a lot of shooters do this, to use the A2 upper instead for this kind of match shooting. But don't despair if you have a removable carry handle, just loctite it good.

I also use a narrower front sight post --Midway sold it to me. I get much clearer, crisper, and less obstructed sight pictures. I'd say if I could only have ONE part to add to standard iron sights, that narrow square front post would be it. Getting a can of "Sight Black" is real nice too, I use before every shoot. Basically lampblack that sprays on like paint but just wipes off when cleaning. Nice flat black sights, front and rear.

I'll also add this for others: if you change the barrel or front sight assembly (including the "gas block") with another, you'll need to be sure to get proper one. Some sloppy barrel makers will just use any assy. on any rifle, but there are special ones for flat tops and different ones for A2 uppers. They are not the same and the sights will not line up if you use the wrong front sight assy.! There is a fix, but it doesn't look ideal for match shooting. Usually flat top front sight assy.'s will have "F" marked on them.

Also, when getting your NM sight assy. for the rear, keep in mind there are two different types. One is for the M4 and it has graduations and stops for a 600m range max. The regular NM sights for standard length 20" AR's have drums with graduations and stops for an 800m range max. Now for this kind of shooting, you'll be collecing data at all the firing lines so the numbers on the drum don't have much meaning. Why do you need NM drums with useless markings then? Because they have less play and much more precise adjustments that apply directly to your data. You'll be more concerned about how many clicks from bottom or last zero --but I already wrote a bunch about that on here recently about laminating your data to your stock behind the charging handle, you could dig through my posts for that if interested. Some laminate the data to the drum, but there can be problems with that too. I prefer a dope book and laminated data on the buttstock behind the charging handle.

Good luck! Sorry if I went too in detail for you, but sometimes this helps other.
 
Rock River Arms
Compass Lake
White Oak Armament/Precision
& some other have them.

I am not sure what you mean about folding. You can use a regular AR sights. The don't have to be match grade as a legal requirement. FSB & Rear can't be flip up (folding), because that's not A2. Flip up is not allowed on a flat top, but a carry handle is.

Now a match director might let you shoot a match & not be eligible to win or earn points. There is now the is a scoped category, which I know nothing about.
This is pretty much right as long as it is in military configuration with few exceptions.

Consider what I wrote as an expanded idea on NM sights and their place in a rilfe and what a good one looks like if you get into it and decide to build or partially build one (and if you find the barrel you want but you can't build it yourself, call Rainier Arms, they'll help you out).

Not sure about the scoped stuff myself either, but hope to be soon. Was told my SDM type Grendel I built was a go, so I hope to do well (especially if I can swap out the ACOG for a quality low variable power scope with a fine mil dot reticle --the accuracy of this rifle surprised me and the ACOG does it a disservice!).
 
Wow "strykervet" that's some detail, and I really appreciate it. That'll be saved in my documents no doubt! Thank You again
 
I am ADAMANTLY opposed to using a more-narrow front sight for service rifle competition.

You might get by with it, and you might even think it is better on bright sunny days.

That skinny front sight will go invisible on you when the clouds roll in.

The front sight is already the right width for a wide variety of conditions, and for people with normal eyesight.

Northern Competition makes an excellent 1/4 x 1/4 rear sight.
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Northern_Competition_Rear_Sight.html

The spray-on "sight black" looks clumpy to me on the front sight.
A carbide smoker does a much better job.

This is the best smoker on the market.
http://www.champchoice.com/prod-Ray_Vin___Carbide_Supersmoker-4697.aspx

Ray-Vin video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rXF0u8OrLdU
 
If you're asking about the sights the way you did I'll assume you have a flattop. The question is, is it a carbine or a standard 20" barrel? It you have the A2 standard with 20" barrel you'll need a carry handle with a rear sight. You can use the sight the way it is or replace the adjustable portion of it. But it must be a carry handle or look like a carry handle for service rifle competition. The front sight tower should also be for an A2.

Note that most carry handles don't actually sight out to 600 yards. They say they will but once you learn how to set up your sights for competition and not combat, they won't work. Only Rock River (and maybe WhiteOak) sells a proper competition carry handle.

I started with a regular carry handle, but I eventually got the bug and bought an A2 upper and I'm lovin it.
 
Strykervet, I gotta say, I just went to Rainier Arms web site. I had never heard of them.
They have a lot of stuff, but I didn’t see anything for a competitive AR Service rifle.
I musta just missed it.:rolleyes:

Capt.hollis, as WNTFW said Compass Lake, White Oak. Google is your friend.

Steve
 
To shoot in the Service Rifle class the rifle has to look like a service rifle. There are some things which go on that is still legal. M-14’s and M-1’s can have over sized stocks which are rather rotund and obvious. AR’s can have float tubes and way nicer triggers than a typical M-16. They can be with or without the flash hider, Thanks Bill. Sights can be finer both in size and function. A good GI sling is needed with Turner being one of the better 1907 slings. Equipment can be had at Champions Choice, www.Champchoice.com, Creedmoore Sports and a few more. Both Champions Choice and Creedmore are worthy of our business. As others have already said White Oak is a good company who also sells good parts. I have two White oak Precision uppers which have served me quite well. A phone call or e-mail to any of these mentioned so far would be fruitful.

It sounds like you already have a rifle. A2 match sights are fixed with a narrow front post on the front sight and a barrel and wheel for elevation and windage. White Oak uses a rear sight with interchangeable aperture’s. I use the smallest for bright sunny days and a larger one for over cast days. This gives me a good sight picture in all light conditions.
The next thought is do you want ½ by ½ inch adjustments or ¼ by ¼ inch adjustments. The ½ inch sights work good for most people. I use the ¼ by ¼ inch because my rifles can use them but not always Me…..

What barrel twist do you have? I might start a war here but I believe the best across the course barrel twist is a 1 in 7. This twist will shoot any bullet normally used in High Power. I shoot 77 gr. SMK’s at 2 and 300 yards and switch to 80 gr SMK’s which are loaded one at a time for 600 yards. (I had a dream of shooting 90 gr Berger’s at 1k. The twist on this rifle is 6 1/2 to 1.) Then I find out the 80 gr. SMK will make it to 1K. In the meantime the 6 ½ twist shot 77 and 80 gr. SMK’s just fine. Today the 6 ½ twist barrel AR is my back up/loaner rifle. This rifle is also high mileage and I use this rifle for reduced matches using 52 and 53 gr SMK’s. The fast twist shoots them just fine. My scores can prove it. I use the high mileage rifle to save the other rifle for the full distance matches.

One you have a rifle, you can shoot matches. Long sleeved shirts and elbow pads and a piece of carpet to lay on takes care of prone. Ditch the elbow pads and you are ready for sitting. I would find a nice glove, can be had for $18.00 for use in off hand, sitting sand prone. A bucket can carry your equipment, mags and ammo. Plus you can sit on it. A pair of binoculars can work for scoring; yeah you have that job too. Binoculars would be hard to use for offhand, sitting and prone but it could be done.

Most High Power shooters love to help the new guy. I have seen offers of the loan of a rifle and the ammo to go with it so a guy/gal will come out and shoot. I witnessed guys loan spotting scopes which can cost as much as a rifle and mats to lay on, gloves etc, etc etc. When the new guy starts out shooting the old guys then it might change a little but everyone still has fun.
I get to look at a broken M-1 Garand sometime this winter to help a guy get back on track for the next season. I think I get to spend some of his money…..I’ll tell him what to get and watch him put the part on. Oh and a 2 stage trigger is important. White Oak Has the RRA 2 stage. This is a good trigger and I have a couple of them tined by WOP. I would also look at the Giessle. More $ but way nice.

Carry on.
 
^^^

This dude hooked you up. Pretty much covered it, better than me too. I prefer a Kowa spotting scope to binos, but those can be costly. Nice, but costly.

The RRA trigger is GREAT --once it has been polished. I suppose some come out of the box great, but mine didn't. Once I smoothed it up a little with a cotton drum, I have to admit it is at least as nice as a Geissele. But a Geissele works right out the box.

Sorry Rainier didn't have what you needed, they do kind of cater to defensive gear. I was pretty sure they carried a lot of the White Oak stuff, and I know they have the trigger. But if you find it cheaper elsewhere, well, do that.

JP Ent. has some good stuff, but again, not really service rifle. Midway has parts, they actually carry most of what you would need all at one place. Prices aren't bad. But woe on you if they screw up, they usually don't but when they do it is like dealing with a govt. agency.

I also agree on the 1/7 twist. Those T1's are pretty nice, so are SMK's, but you need that 1/7 twist to be POSITIVE it is stabilized. You can easily run 60's in it and I've had no problems using 55's, but I've heard others have. Go figure; the army switched to 1/7 but still issue XM193 (well, they did seven years ago).

The skinny front sight post, that is kind of up to you. Try it out. If it works it works, but don't waste too much time with it gathering data if it doesn't. The regular ones work great, but I prefer the skinnies, however, I have pretty good eyesight.

BTW, I've shot these matches using a military stock SOPMOD M4 using M855. Both as a marksman student and instructor. With the burst trigger too, it has to be 12lbs if not more! I got a 290 using that junk consistently, and I've taught this course to others (but in the light of teaching true marksmanship before moving on to ACOG's and combat junk --the NM part was the most fun though, and this is how I got into it). I have to admit it lies in the shooter, and you can do good without spending much, just get a GOOD barrel and a GOOD trigger. FF it if you can, it helps keep zero when you change positions, and keeps the groups tighter in general. I'd focus on those parts first, IMO. A nice sling and glove should be next, and as far as I am concerned Turner has the sling market cornered. For the glove, I've even used a rappel glove. The real ones are nicer, more comfortable, but all you need is something to keep the sling from rubbing/cutting into your hand.

If you want PHENOMENAL get a Satern barrel --if you can. They are always backed up, but they make one of the best cut rifle barrels you can get. They do have barrels in stock from time to time, but most are custom. I've had one on order for months now, I expect to get it maybe this time next year, but it'll be worth the wait. This barrel gives an edge at long ranges, with good handloads you can easily get sub-MOA from it. You do your part and they all go in the middle.

Good luck!
 
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