Bingo.
legality of lethal response to mace
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(Liveleak has several videos.) From the video I've seen of the argument between Keltner and the other (Black Rifles Matter shirt) guy just prior to the shooting. Keltner appeared to have the mace already in hand. At some point Keltner stopped engaging with BRM shirt guy, directly focussed on something in the direction of Dolloff, and walked off camera.
I am presuming whatever caused him to focus his attention and walk towards Dolloff will be important to the case. Though no video yet, whatever was said was seconds prior to, and may have precipitated the assault on Dolloff.
I am presuming whatever caused him to focus his attention and walk towards Dolloff will be important to the case. Though no video yet, whatever was said was seconds prior to, and may have precipitated the assault on Dolloff.
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Outlaw75
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wiscoaster
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I don't think that video is going to help the shooter at all. He was way too worked up, way too fixated on "standing his ground" with plenty of opportunity to disengage (and encouraged to do so), and plenty of provocation from his side as well as the other. As a reasonable person, if I was a juror, I would not find his use of deadly force as reasonable or justifiable. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Outlaw75
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The only person saying anything about "standing ground" is the guy in the black t-shirt and he isn't the shooter.
That's what I thought, too. Well, the lady on the right says, "We do, too," but she's also not the shooter.
I had not seen Branca's first LoSD Blof post on the Denver incident. posted on 12August, until this morning. He addressed some of the key issues.
First, on this one,
Branca emphasizes that believing that that statement is always true represents a legal misconception. It is true when the product is used in the manner intended--lawfully and defensively.
When pepper spray is used offensively or unlawfully, it is not at all uncommon for its use to be deemed to constitute the use of deadly force, both in the establishment of charges against the user, and in the justification of force employed defensively against the user.
One key reason for that is the one I have outlined above. There are others. The discussion is rather lengthy.
In sum, whether the OC use constituted the use of deadly force in this case depends on what happened when-- on who, if either, of the participants was innocent--and other things
On the question of innocence, Branca addreses this question:
Whether the victim started spraying before the shot was fired or afterward, is not determinative. Branca explains that the initial aggressor is not the person who fired the first shot, landed the first blow, etc. Aggression start with the threat.
First, on this one,
Branca emphasizes that believing that that statement is always true represents a legal misconception. It is true when the product is used in the manner intended--lawfully and defensively.
When pepper spray is used offensively or unlawfully, it is not at all uncommon for its use to be deemed to constitute the use of deadly force, both in the establishment of charges against the user, and in the justification of force employed defensively against the user.
One key reason for that is the one I have outlined above. There are others. The discussion is rather lengthy.
In sum, whether the OC use constituted the use of deadly force in this case depends on what happened when-- on who, if either, of the participants was innocent--and other things
On the question of innocence, Branca addreses this question:
Whether the victim started spraying before the shot was fired or afterward, is not determinative. Branca explains that the initial aggressor is not the person who fired the first shot, landed the first blow, etc. Aggression start with the threat.
"The devil is in the details"
From the body positions in that photo, it looks to me like Doloff was moving forward toward Keltner, reaching out, while Keltner was standing still.
But the video seems to show that Keltner was behaving rather aggressively and it looks like he went after the cameraman, who Doloff was likely there to protect.
A LOT of detail still missing here.
From the body positions in that photo, it looks to me like Doloff was moving forward toward Keltner, reaching out, while Keltner was standing still.
But the video seems to show that Keltner was behaving rather aggressively and it looks like he went after the cameraman, who Doloff was likely there to protect.
A LOT of detail still missing here.
I scanned through quickly and didn't see this mentioned. But I can see someone in a stressful situation seeing someone reach for a pepper spray cannister, draw, and aim it at them and mistaking it for a gun. This sort of thing happens to LE from time to time where it turns out being a cell phone or wallet.
wiscoaster
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Nice wrap-up. Ditto from me.
I'll concur in that being a nice wrap-up. We've reached the point of 'round and round the mulberry bush,' so I'm going to close this one. Thank you all for remaining civil.
The charges have been dropped.
https://denvergazette.com/news/loca...cle_94ed3fd8-a0bd-11ec-98ca-e7cf0c6b3a84.html
https://denvergazette.com/news/loca...cle_94ed3fd8-a0bd-11ec-98ca-e7cf0c6b3a84.html
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