Legality of Trigger Jobs

[ctdonath]

most responsible people have at least a million dollars homeowner liability coverage, so they go after that.

Most such policies will exempt the carrier from liability for a willful tort, i.e., a deliberate act on your part. They will only pay off on NEGLIGENCE. Therefore, to get at the deep pockets, the plaintiff manufactures a theory that you accidentally and negligently discharged the gun while holding the surrendered burglar at gunpoint, resulting in a wrongful death.

Worth repeating.

All too often we forget that the prosecutor is after a successful conviction, not the truth. He can make up stories just like the defense can. It just has to be plausible enough for the jury to vote accordingly, it doesn't have to be true - and light triggers open the door to some pretty convincing fabricated accounts of what happened.

 

[pbearperry]

A trigger job is much like power steering in a car.Does this sound right?"Hey this car has power steering.Charge him with premeditation."Where do these fruit loops come from that spread this crap?

 

[buzz_knox]

A trigger job is much like power steering in a car.Does this sound right?"Hey this car has power steering.Charge him with premeditation."Where do these fruit loops come from that spread this crap?

As stated before, the "premeditation" angle was exceedingly unlikely.

I've often that describing this as dealing with control mechanisms rather than triggers might get people thinking. Let's say you modify your power steering so that it is exceedingly easy to use. Simply touch the wheel and the car will instanly respond. It's fine in ordinary use, but in an emergency, you might find your stress reactions combined with the modified steering turning an otherwise fairly routine situation into a disaster.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

All too often we forget that the prosecutor is after a successful conviction, not the truth. He can make up stories just like the defense can. It just has to be plausible enough for the jury to vote accordingly, it doesn't have to be true - and light triggers open the door to some pretty convincing fabricated accounts of what happened.

Exactly. Too many people are claiming "a trigger job is perfectly legal and normal, so why should it matter?" Well they're right, the truth is, trigger jobs are legal and normal. Too bad the truth doesn't really matter. A prosecutor can and will use anything he can to paint you as either negligent or overly malicious. And saying you made you firearm unsafe or easier to fire is certainly something they would say. It doesn't have to be the truth. They just have to get a completely gun-ignorant jury to think it is.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

False allegations of hair trigger AD that I’ve been involved in include GA v. Crumbley (S&W Model 586), KY v. Rucker (SIG P226), and FL v. Alvarez (S&W Model 64). Crumbley was no-billed by the grand jury, and Rucker and Alvarez were both acquitted at trial, charged with Manslaughter.

Ayoob mentioned Alvarez. It is relevant here to the OP. It was a case where the trigger job was a problem when it came to manslaughter charges but was not a problem for self defense shooting.

However, it was not the modification to the gun that got Alvarez in trouble and brought up on manslaughter. What got him in trouble was the fact that Alvarez exclaimed that the gun discharged when he was bumped in the arm by another officer. This was heard, recorded, and became the basis for the charge of manslaughter because Alvarez apparently unintentionally discharged his revolver into the face [corrected] of the suspect that was being held at gunpoint. At that time, Alvarez had his revolver cocked (single action). A trigger job had been performed on his gun. Both of these facets came out in court. So we could be arguing here that cocking a revolver to SA from DA could be used against you in court as well.

Somewhere between the shooting and court, the story changed to Alvarez shooting the suspect because the suspect made furtive movement which was backed up by other officers. Later, Alvarez noted that he had no idea why he said the gun discharged when he was bumped as he meant to shoot the suspect. Long story short, the light trigger pull issue and manslaughter charges were for naught as this was not a manslaughter case but one where the officer intentionally shot the suspect who made furtive moves and as such, the modified trigger pull did not matter.

The case was State v. Luis Alvarez out of Dade County, Florida from an incident that occurred on December 28, 1982.

 

[massad ayoob]

DNS, you might want to research the Alvarez case a little more deeply.

Alvarez shot Johnson in the front of the head, not in the back. We proved at trial that he never cocked the gun and shot Johnson deliberately, in self-defense and in defense of his partner.

Roy Black, the brilliant attorney who led the defense, wrote about the Alvarez case in detail in his book, "Black's Law," readily available in libraries, bookstores, and on Amazon.

If the issue revolver had been double action only, the prosecution's bogus theory that he cocked the revolver would not have served as a peg upon which to hang their politically expedient Manslaughter prosecution in the first place. Between the indictment and the trial, Miami PD did in fact convert all their service revolvers to DAO, and the chief swore that any auto pistol the department would ever approve would have to be DAO. This led directly to the adoption of the Glock pistol (with 8-lb triggers, I believe) by MPD after ATF declared Glocks to be double action only.

 

[scurtis_34471]

Let me make this very specific then:

Should my wife worry about carrying her S&W M&P 9mm Compact with its 4.5 pound trigger, given that we have a receipt to prove it was done by a legitimate gun smith and given that the pull weight is well within the generally accepted range for a carry gun?

 

[massad ayoob]

SCurtis, I think the most decisive way to set your mind at ease on this would be to ask Smith & Wesson. I'd suggest you send your letter to the attention of Joe Bergeron there; Joe was head of development on the M&P pistol project. Print off a copy of this thread and include it.

Joe has worked closely with the many police departments that have tested and approved the M&P auto pistol in its various forms, and his opinion should be the most unassailably authoritative.

Good luck, please share the results of your query with the rest of us.

Best wishes,
Mas

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Thanks Ayoob, you are right, in the forehead, not the back. It has been corrected.

As for proving SA in court. That is interesting. I recall reading somewhere that the testing on the cartridge was inconclusive and that you discredited a witness who said the hammer was back. The point wasn't proven so much as the issue, with others, was decided by the jury.

The Ayoob Files: The Book, pages 67-68.

There are two very good points you make that I do like. The first is from the above reference, page 74

If you act in good faith and have competent counsel, any attack against you can be successfully deflected.

The second is from the Sept 2004 Combat Handguns

Things like attacking the officer's gun or ammunition are the sort of things that are predictably used by lawyers who have no substantive.

 

[divemedic]

A few thoughts:

If you get a sufficiently zealous opposing attorney, he is going to use anything he can. so you don't have a "hair trigger," he will say you loaded +P hollow points to kill. He will paint you as a wannabe Mafia hitman because you CCW. He will paint you as a wannabe cop because you carry the same model as the local or Federal cops.

At least I am in Florida where the profit motivation for manslaughter over murder is removed by state law.

Most of my pistols have had some sort of trigger work done by the factory. I still sleep well at night.

 

[scurtis_34471]

SCurtis, I think the most decisive way to set your mind at ease on this would be to ask Smith & Wesson. I'd suggest you send your letter to the attention of Joe Bergeron there; Joe was head of development on the M&P pistol project. Print off a copy of this thread and include it.

Joe has worked closely with the many police departments that have tested and approved the M&P auto pistol in its various forms, and his opinion should be the most unassailably authoritative.

Good luck, please share the results of your query with the rest of us.

Best wishes,
Mas

In other words, if I have a letter from the manufacturer stating that the trigger weight is within safe limits, that would address any potential problem down the road in advance?

 

[massad ayoob]

As strong as it gets.

 

[N3HCP]

Going back to the OP, for whatever it's worth, I have gone the other way with my carry guns. I have NY-1 trigger springs in all my Glocks. Under as close as I can get to real world training and IDPA matches, I see absolutely no difference in accuracy between the stock 5.5 pound trigger and the 8 pound NY-1. What I did see is a reduction in the number of unintentional double taps. I can only speak for myself, but when the pressure's on and the adrenaline is pumping, a couple pounds heaver trigger pull doesn't make a bit of difference. I took Mr. Ayood's LFI-1 with a G19 with an NY-1 and was able to hold my own with the other students.

Do I shoot better with my 1911 with a 3.5 pound trigger when I and standing on the range all cool and collected? Sure. Do I want that 1911 in a life and death self defence situation with all the baggage that carries? I think not. The 8 pound trigger provides the performance I need in self a situation, helps to avoid unintentional double taps, and is far more defensible in court. I need to survive both fights, the gun fight and the court fight that is sure to follow. Anything I can do ahead of time to help win both fights is time will spent. The prosecution and the ambulance chasing liability lawyers don't need me to help them do their jobs. (See, Mas, I really was listening in class).

 

[scurtis_34471]

For what it is worth, all three of my carry guns have 8 pound triggers and are bone stock other than night sights.

I shot a 12-round course of fire with my XD-40 Service at my last IDPA match that included a holster draw, 3 shots from retention, 6 shots while moving, a reload and 3 headshots. I completed the string in 14.5 seconds and was only 5 points down. Not one shot was outside the 0 or -1 areas.

The only gun I carry other than my XD-40 Service and Subcompact is a Kahr P9 Covert, which I use for pocket carry during the summer. It has a very long and heavy DA trigger. I recently took it to a bowling pin match and took down 5 pins with 6 shots at 15 yards.

I have no issues with an 8 pound trigger. I had the trigger on my wife's gun worked on to keep her from getting too frustrated as she learned to shoot. It worked. She actually likes shooting now and is getting to the point where she can handle the heavier triggers on our other guns. The big question at this point is whether her Smith is a viable home defense and carry gun or a range toy. I plan to take the advice given and see if I can get a letter from Smith on the subject to put in the file with the paperwork from the gunsmith. If Smith says the trigger is outside acceptable limits, I may consider sending it back to the factory for an approved trigger job from the manufacturer.

 

[massad ayoob]

Everything you said in your last post sounds sensible to me, Scurtis. Please let us all know what info you get back from S&W.

Best,
Mas