zogorion
Member
Yay, I'm not alone. I was starting to feel pretty outnumbered. 
Legalize all drugs?
- Thread starter johnster999
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zogorion,
Do you think that prohibition was a failure? I do. I also don't see much difference between that and the current drug war.
I'm not a drug user. I don't smoke or drink. I drink much more water than soda. But I believe in freedom.
How willing would you be to try a 10 year legalization for Marijuanna? Clinton gun control turned out to be a failure. How about we give this one a chance? If that works (reduces crime and doesn't significantly raise the number of people on welfare) we can think about some of the other drugs. Opiates, maybe. Legalizing MJ and Opium might just drop prescription drug costs. I haven't read too much into hallucinogens, so I don't know which of those might work, I'd want one that doesn't have side effects, relapses, etc. Maybe some of the rawer forms of cocaine. I imagine that Meth would fall by the wayside, as safer, legal, drugs became available that provide the same 'high'.
Remember, us libertarians think that the fed.gov is on the wrong track, so many things need to be fixed. Our whole philosophy is different.
Do you think that prohibition was a failure? I do. I also don't see much difference between that and the current drug war.
I'm not a drug user. I don't smoke or drink. I drink much more water than soda. But I believe in freedom.
How willing would you be to try a 10 year legalization for Marijuanna? Clinton gun control turned out to be a failure. How about we give this one a chance? If that works (reduces crime and doesn't significantly raise the number of people on welfare) we can think about some of the other drugs. Opiates, maybe. Legalizing MJ and Opium might just drop prescription drug costs. I haven't read too much into hallucinogens, so I don't know which of those might work, I'd want one that doesn't have side effects, relapses, etc. Maybe some of the rawer forms of cocaine. I imagine that Meth would fall by the wayside, as safer, legal, drugs became available that provide the same 'high'.
Remember, us libertarians think that the fed.gov is on the wrong track, so many things need to be fixed. Our whole philosophy is different.
zogorion
Member
You bring up an interesting point
A trial period of MJ only legalization would probably be acceptable to most people, because like I said earlier, it's the most accepted form of illegal drug. Personally, I think that it would only reduce crime in the sense that less people would be getting arrested for possession.
In theory, I completely agree with you guys (libertarians) on the fact that what people do in private should be just that, private. I agree that in theory, a person should be allowed to do whatever they want in their own home. The point that I am arguing, is that with .gov endorsment of private drug use, drug use and its effects will become far more public than it is now.
A trial period of MJ only legalization would probably be acceptable to most people, because like I said earlier, it's the most accepted form of illegal drug. Personally, I think that it would only reduce crime in the sense that less people would be getting arrested for possession.
In theory, I completely agree with you guys (libertarians) on the fact that what people do in private should be just that, private. I agree that in theory, a person should be allowed to do whatever they want in their own home. The point that I am arguing, is that with .gov endorsment of private drug use, drug use and its effects will become far more public than it is now.
RealGun
Member
Selective enforcement, exempting marijuana for example, will become a debate about whether there is an attempt at social engineering in the white community versus black. Get ready for the whining. The dangerous part of crime is with harder drugs, and guess where the use is most prevalent.
Too Many Choices!?
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Drugs and guns are here to stay, legalize both or freedom will pay!
The government has the power to say,"You can not go out and buy this without following regulations, State and Federal",period. Please show me a FEDERAL regulation that states the FEDERAL government has the power to prohibit private possession of ANY item by a NON-Felon CITIZEN. Anyone ? Pssssst, don't tell anybody but....They Don't, as long as you comply with State regs. What does possession for private use have to do with the Federal gov.? 
Oh yeah, what you have is a situation where a private citizen ,"Might" engage in ,"interstate commerce" with the possessed item ! What a buncha hooey.....A non-felon citizen should not have the burdon of proof of following the law. The government should have to prove that the non-felon citizen is actually participating in, or involved in,"interstate commerce"(FEDERAL law) or "intrastate commerce"(State law).... 
The government has the power to say,"You can not go out and buy this without following regulations, State and Federal",period. Please show me a FEDERAL regulation that states the FEDERAL government has the power to prohibit private possession of ANY item by a NON-Felon CITIZEN. Anyone
? Pssssst, don't tell anybody but....They Don't, as long as you comply with State regs. What does possession for private use have to do with the Federal gov.? Oh yeah, what you have is a situation where a private citizen ,"Might" engage in ,"interstate commerce" with the possessed item ! What a buncha hooey.....A non-felon citizen should not have the burdon of proof of following the law. The government should have to prove that the non-felon citizen is actually participating in, or involved in,"interstate commerce"(FEDERAL law) or "intrastate commerce"(State law).... zogorion
Member
As much as we all hate "Slippery Slope" talk here on THR. I'm afraid we're kinda falling in to that mindset in this discussion. According to some in this thread, since we should have the right to buy any kind of firearm that we choose, we should also be allowed to buy and possess and use any type of drug that we choose, so long as it's in our own home. Well, let me ask you guys about the other side of that slippery slope.
If they legalize all drugs, what's next? Prostitution? I mean, hey, as long as it's in a state regulated whore-house, and the girls are checked every so often by a doc, who cares right?
I think that'd be a bad idea. What do you guys think?
If they legalize all drugs, what's next? Prostitution? I mean, hey, as long as it's in a state regulated whore-house, and the girls are checked every so often by a doc, who cares right?
I think that'd be a bad idea. What do you guys think?
davec
Member
Works perfectly fine in certain parts of Nevada. I don't have a problem with it.
zogorion
Member
davec said: regarding legal prostitution
Would you want your daughter working at a burlesque house?
Would you want your daughter working at a burlesque house?
davec
Member
I would want my fictional daughter to work in a brothel as much as I would want her to do drugs, but I still think both should be legal.
Too Many Choices!?
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Zogorion....NO FLAME but I am losing confidence in your reasoning abilities....
They(regulators st. and fed.) would NEVER, and I repeat NEVER legalize all drugs....Some are simply too addictive/destructive to the human body and mind. However, having said that, I do believe we have a current social model that "allows" some addiction(caffeine, alcohol, and cigarettes) and what they do to the body/mind of an individual, as long as it does not affect the public...Why would prostitution be any different than any other industry that is regulated? If it has a place of business(regulated as to location by zoning laws),has a license(meaning state allowed to engage in the business), and is regulated(meaning a set of std/drug tests and standards of operation across the board) why do you have a problem with it? Especially if it takes the illicit prostitution off the streets! Which I bet(no evidence my opinion) also leads to alot of the murders we see, stds being spread,hard drug use, and is simply not what I would want ANY child or adult forced to witness in public!IMHO,I believe your arguments( like many anti gun arguments) are based in emotion or a predisposed moral superiority complex that should not cloud reason . Now what do you have to say to that?
They(regulators st. and fed.) would NEVER, and I repeat NEVER legalize all drugs....Some are simply too addictive/destructive to the human body and mind. However, having said that, I do believe we have a current social model that "allows"
some addiction(caffeine, alcohol, and cigarettes) and what they do to the body/mind of an individual, as long as it does not affect the public...Why would prostitution be any different than any other industry that is regulated? If it has a place of business(regulated as to location by zoning laws),has a license(meaning state allowed to engage in the business), and is regulated(meaning a set of std/drug tests and standards of operation across the board) why do you have a problem with it? Especially if it takes the illicit prostitution off the streets! Which I bet(no evidence my opinion) also leads to alot of the murders we see, stds being spread,hard drug use, and is simply not what I would want ANY child or adult forced to witness in public!IMHO,I believe your arguments( like many anti gun arguments) are based in emotion or a predisposed moral superiority complex that should not cloud reason . Now what do you have to say to that? zogorion
Member
davec: Not to get all "It's for the children!" on you, but those girls are all somebone's daughter, and I can bet they aren't excited about their little girl laying down for a living. Since you wouldn't want your fictional daughter to do it, there must be something wrong with it, no?
Choices: I was just going by what the title of the thread says. Which ones do you think they should legalize? About the prostitution thing, see above where I reference, "Not my daughter, not my mother!" etc. The way I see it, we all have these great ideals about freedom, but always see it as someone elses kid doing the dirty for money. You can't honestly tell me you would want your daughter to be the one spreading her legs for money, hence, there must be something wrong with the profession. Or from a younger person's perspective, "Hi mommy, welcome home. How was your day at work?" "Well, baby, it was about like usual, a big pain in the ass."
Choices: I was just going by what the title of the thread says. Which ones do you think they should legalize? About the prostitution thing, see above where I reference, "Not my daughter, not my mother!" etc. The way I see it, we all have these great ideals about freedom, but always see it as someone elses kid doing the dirty for money. You can't honestly tell me you would want your daughter to be the one spreading her legs for money, hence, there must be something wrong with the profession. Or from a younger person's perspective, "Hi mommy, welcome home. How was your day at work?" "Well, baby, it was about like usual, a big pain in the ass."
Igloodude
Member
zogorion said:
I think that it ought to be legalized as well. And, per your next question, no, I wouldn't want my 18-yr-old stepdaughter to become a prostitute, but then again I wouldn't want her to become a lawyer either, and I'm not favoring banning lawyers (yet). I do prefer that she get into whatever profession makes her happiest, and not have .gov summarily decide that certain professions are banned because they upset other people.
And to get back to the banning guns=banning drugs, you compare responsible THR shooters that lawfully go to the range and then go home with irresponsible drug users that do not follow the law. There are irresponsible gun "users" (for the most part, the reason why THR shooters carry concealed) and there are responsible drug users. The anti-gun person that says "we have enough firearm-related murders now, and gun owners want to allow MORE CCW?" is using precisely the same logic as you who say "we have enough DUIs now, and libertarians/drug users want to allow MORE drug use?"
publius
Member
Workin' on it!
According to others in this thread, the legal basis for federal drug prohibition laws has historically been the same as the legal basis for federal gun laws, and that same situation still obtains today.
The support for stretching the Constitution to accomodate the drug war has strengthened the foundations of federal gun laws, and now we're in a situation where the legal fate of federal gun laws will very likely rest on the legal fate of medical marijuana laws.
Too Many Choices!?
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Zogorion
All I have to say about the prostitution thing is this: What is porn? Nothing more than a government regulated prostitution on vhs or dvd or mpg! You have not said anything about pornstars, whom even now as I type this, are somewhere getting paid for that hard days work; and the government takes it's cut and turns a blind eye ! Why? Because it is governments job to regulate industries(porn star age limits)/public behavior(don't publicly drive impaired) and not to dictate the morals or job preferance of an individual....
Now the reason we all see it as,"someone elses kid doing the dirty for money" is we believe we will raise our kid to know what is right and wrong for them and they would hopefully(after being raised for 18 years) have morals similar to our own; not dictated to them by anyone as they are FREE CITIZENS and not serfs....
I can not conceive(doesn't mean it can't be done though) of a way to legalize(make available for sale to general public) all substances , even though what I do with my body is a right....I don't see selling gas and paint to kids or adults specifically for them to go and ,"huff", having anything but negative effects on that citizen of this country. Now if a non-felon citizen wants to use gas(privately) as a drug,then that is not a government issue.It is an intelligence one that will soon be rectified as their IQ drops faster than Rosie drops a plate when finished(difference being Rosie WILL pick up another plate they won't get another IQ point!) This is still not even a state issue as it is prvate use. It is a family issue and would need to be addressed as one with government "support" if needed but not direct government intervention before a crime is commited or help is asked for(if kids are involved that is different). I hope I have answered your questions
PS Not all people would jump on drugs or prostitutes if they were made marketable to the general public,but the ones that do, would create a large taxable industry and reduce crime
All I have to say about the prostitution thing is this: What is porn? Nothing more than a government regulated prostitution on vhs or dvd or mpg! You have not said anything about pornstars, whom even now as I type this, are somewhere getting paid for that hard days work; and the government takes it's cut and turns a blind eye
! Why? Because it is governments job to regulate industries(porn star age limits)/public behavior(don't publicly drive impaired) and not to dictate the morals or job preferance of an individual.... Now the reason we all see it as,"someone elses kid doing the dirty for money" is we believe we will raise our kid to know what is right and wrong for them and they would hopefully(after being raised for 18 years) have morals similar to our own; not dictated to them by anyone as they are FREE CITIZENS and not serfs....
I can not conceive(doesn't mean it can't be done though) of a way to legalize(make available for sale to general public) all substances
, even though what I do with my body is a right....I don't see selling gas and paint to kids or adults specifically for them to go and ,"huff", having anything but negative effects on that citizen of this country. Now if a non-felon citizen wants to use gas(privately) as a drug,then that is not a government issue.It is an intelligence one that will soon be rectified as their IQ drops faster than Rosie drops a plate when finished(difference being Rosie WILL pick up another plate they won't get another IQ point!) This is still not even a state issue as it is prvate use. It is a family issue and would need to be addressed as one with government "support" if needed but not direct government intervention before a crime is commited or help is asked for(if kids are involved that is different). I hope I have answered your questions PS Not all people would jump on drugs or prostitutes if they were made marketable to the general public,but the ones that do, would create a large taxable industry and reduce crime
zogorion
Member
Allright guys, I'm putting an end to this, I'm tired of thinking about this thread all the time.
I agree with you that, a person should be able to do whatever he damn well chooses in his/her own home. That's fine. You won't find a bigger supporter of that mentality than myself.
The problem that I have with this whole thing is this: Freedom with guns, and freedom with drugs aren't the same. Before you start in on the "Freedom is Freedom!" stuff hear me out.
I think that over the last couple hundred years, people (society) has proven itself to be pretty responsible concerning firearms. Yes, we have a number of violent crimes every year involving firearms, but that number is far less than the crimes firearms prevent in one way or another. It is also far less than the number of hunters out there that use thier firearms for that purpose.
Over the last couple hundred years people have been pretty (not totally) responsible with guns whether it was legal in certain eras to posses, carry, shoot, or even build them. Through the years I think society has a pretty good track record concerning firearms.
I don't think so concerning drugs.
The unsavory chars. in our society, involved with drugs, whether it be manufacture, sales, trafficing, use, have not proven to me the same level of responsibility. Therefore, I think it would be moving in the wrong direction to reward their behavior by legalizing their vice.
You may not agree with me, that's fine, we're all entitled to our own opinion, but at least meet me halfway and tell me you believe that legalizing drugs (of whatever type) might, just might, accelerate our society's trip to hell in this handbasket.
All I want from you is an admission that there might, just might, be a dark side to allowing us this freedom that you (libertarians) hold so dear. If you meet me halfway, you won't ever hear another word from this guy who has a "moral superiority complex" that is clouding my judgement.
I agree with you that, a person should be able to do whatever he damn well chooses in his/her own home. That's fine. You won't find a bigger supporter of that mentality than myself.
The problem that I have with this whole thing is this: Freedom with guns, and freedom with drugs aren't the same. Before you start in on the "Freedom is Freedom!" stuff hear me out.
I think that over the last couple hundred years, people (society) has proven itself to be pretty responsible concerning firearms. Yes, we have a number of violent crimes every year involving firearms, but that number is far less than the crimes firearms prevent in one way or another. It is also far less than the number of hunters out there that use thier firearms for that purpose.
Over the last couple hundred years people have been pretty (not totally) responsible with guns whether it was legal in certain eras to posses, carry, shoot, or even build them. Through the years I think society has a pretty good track record concerning firearms.
I don't think so concerning drugs.
The unsavory chars. in our society, involved with drugs, whether it be manufacture, sales, trafficing, use, have not proven to me the same level of responsibility. Therefore, I think it would be moving in the wrong direction to reward their behavior by legalizing their vice.
You may not agree with me, that's fine, we're all entitled to our own opinion, but at least meet me halfway and tell me you believe that legalizing drugs (of whatever type) might, just might, accelerate our society's trip to hell in this handbasket.
All I want from you is an admission that there might, just might, be a dark side to allowing us this freedom that you (libertarians) hold so dear. If you meet me halfway, you won't ever hear another word from this guy who has a "moral superiority complex" that is clouding my judgement.
Now what do you have to say to that?
Too Many Choices!?
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Well if that is all you wanted.....
You got it! Only problem so far is that I don't believe in ",allowing" freedoms. You either have them or you don't, but they are not allowed. That would imply permission, but I digress. If we legalize ALL DRUGS, most assuradly you will be found to be right, as many idiots will lose touch with reality and basically become zombies.....
Now I am of the opinion if we regulate drug use that is no more inherently dangerous or addictive than cigarettes and alcohol that would be a step in the right direction for liberty....I have already said you are correct in my last post that says," I can not conceive(doesn't mean it can't be done though) of a way to legalize(make available for sale to the general public all substances :confused, even though what I do with my body is a right". I said that in response to your question of what drugs should be legal. This means that not all substances should be sold to the general public, in less convoluted terminology. So Yes I will meet you half way but then I will still be on my side of the fence when I do !
Lastly, just because the Fed government doesn't sell a drug to the public, does that mean that it should not be possessed by anyone in the country?(rhetorical question) No! Because as a free man,a non felon US citizen, I should have the right to make it if I feel the desire and can stay inside state regs. of course. Possession of an item does not immediately mandate a crime is being or will be commited.
Prohibition(of anything legal to use in this country )from a free Citizen is unConstitutional unless simply a government opinion/policy and not codified into law!
PS I never claimed to be a liberitarian. Although I have found myself championing their causes when I find them just(which oddly enough is becoming more and more often)
You got it! Only problem so far is that I don't believe in ",allowing" freedoms. You either have them or you don't, but they are not allowed. That would imply permission, but I digress. If we legalize ALL DRUGS, most assuradly you will be found to be right, as many idiots will lose touch with reality and basically become zombies.....
Now I am of the opinion if we regulate drug use that is no more inherently dangerous or addictive than cigarettes and alcohol that would be a step in the right direction for liberty....I have already said you are correct in my last post that says," I can not conceive(doesn't mean it can't be done though) of a way to legalize(make available for sale to the general public all substances :confused, even though what I do with my body is a right". I said that in response to your question of what drugs should be legal. This means that not all substances should be sold to the general public, in less convoluted terminology. So Yes I will meet you half way but then I will still be on my side of the fence when I do
! Lastly, just because the Fed government doesn't sell a drug to the public, does that mean that it should not be possessed by anyone in the country?(rhetorical question) No! Because as a free man,a non felon US citizen, I should have the right to make it if I feel the desire and can stay inside state regs. of course
. Possession of an item does not immediately mandate a crime is being or will be commited.Prohibition(of anything legal to use in this country )from a free Citizen is unConstitutional unless simply a government opinion/policy and not codified into law!
PS I never claimed to be a liberitarian. Although I have found myself championing their causes when I find them just(which oddly enough is becoming more and more often)
zogorion
Member
Thank you. Now that I know we are seeing a little more eye2eye. Wouldn't you say that the .gov only allowing people to snort certain things, or smoke certain things, or inject certain things, is still going to invite criticizim from the hard line libertarians out there, that say
:whiney voice: I wanna go out and smoke the hardest, craziest, bath-tub crank I can find, but the fat cats in Washington won't let me, wah. We aren't really free at all! :/whiney voice:
I mean, hey, in a perfect world it'd be great if we could all be trusted to stay in and get as high as a kite off .gov regulated narcotics and not screw anything up, but we simply can't be trusted.
And I think it'd be pretty funny walking down the Narcotics aisle at the local Wal-Mart. Cuz you know if there's a profit to be made, Wal-Mart will sell it.
Or be standing in line at the "pharmacy" and hear some guy ask for "A dimebag of weed, 8 ball of that black tar, and a couple grams of coke. Oh wait, don't forget that 30-rock of crack."
:whiney voice: I wanna go out and smoke the hardest, craziest, bath-tub crank I can find, but the fat cats in Washington won't let me, wah. We aren't really free at all! :/whiney voice:
I mean, hey, in a perfect world it'd be great if we could all be trusted to stay in and get as high as a kite off .gov regulated narcotics and not screw anything up, but we simply can't be trusted.
And I think it'd be pretty funny walking down the Narcotics aisle at the local Wal-Mart. Cuz you know if there's a profit to be made, Wal-Mart will sell it.
Or be standing in line at the "pharmacy" and hear some guy ask for "A dimebag of weed, 8 ball of that black tar, and a couple grams of coke. Oh wait, don't forget that 30-rock of crack."
publius
Member
Why would you want to do that? I'm having a great time pointing out the fact that federal gun laws and federal drug laws now have their legal fates intertwined, and that now it is the Bush administration which is espousing the "Living Document" theory of the Constitution and resting their legal arguments on Wickard v. Filburn, and that because of those mistakes, they are laying the foundation on which federal gun laws are built, and, last but not least, that the strict constructionists in the whole story can be found in the wacky Ninth Circuit.
That's not funny to you?
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
I love how every time this topic comes up, posters whose arguments come straight from the playbook of the Women's Christian Temperance Union skip practically all of my posts, never addressing or even acknowledging the big, fat elephant sitting in the corner of the room.
They are never able to fundamentally justify why the rights of citizens who do not use illicit narcotics are still considered forfeit in the so-called War on Drugs.
So, zogorian (or any of the other prohibitionists here) I ask you again, please present even one rational, compelling argument why my civil rights should be restricted in order to pursue the so-called War on Drugs?
They are never able to fundamentally justify why the rights of citizens who do not use illicit narcotics are still considered forfeit in the so-called War on Drugs.
So, zogorian (or any of the other prohibitionists here) I ask you again, please present even one rational, compelling argument why my civil rights should be restricted in order to pursue the so-called War on Drugs?
Drizzt
Member
Interestingly enough, I just got through watching an episode of Penn and Teller's Bullsh** on Showtime, talking about this exact issue. Admittedly, they concentrated more on marijuana than the other forms, but all were covered. I would recommend it to anyone curious about this, as the arguments presented were rather good, if a bit profane. At the end, the main thrust was geared more towards preservation of individual rights, which is no surprise given the strong Libertarian (yes, capital "L") leanings of this duo.
johnster999
Member
You always hear that an addict must "hit bottom" before they start looking at changing their life.
Maybe our country needs to hit bottom before we really take on the drug problem in an effective way.
Maybe our country needs to hit bottom before we really take on the drug problem in an effective way.
publius
Member
Our power-addicted government has already been reduced to claiming that a homegrown plant (or machine gun) for personal consumption is interstate commerce in order to hold on to their "fix."
If this isn't the bottom, you're telling me it's going to get even more pathetic and ridiculous?
If this isn't the bottom, you're telling me it's going to get even more pathetic and ridiculous?
publius,
Indeed so. Regardly I think all drugs should be legalized, hell if you want anything you can get it regardless of the legal nature of it in this country. The only thing it is doing is cost use BILLIONS (dare I say trillions) of dollars to fight a "war on drugs" (read war on the people), and pad the pockets of countless drug dealing thugs throughout the world. Make it a legal product to sell in the states, and see what happens.
Indeed so. Regardly I think all drugs should be legalized, hell if you want anything you can get it regardless of the legal nature of it in this country. The only thing it is doing is cost use BILLIONS (dare I say trillions) of dollars to fight a "war on drugs" (read war on the people), and pad the pockets of countless drug dealing thugs throughout the world. Make it a legal product to sell in the states, and see what happens.
timetofight
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ALL Drugs Should NOT be legalized!
Again, I have been involved in the War on Drugs, from both sides.
While I agree that Marijuana should be decriminalized, I vehemently disagree that ALL drugs should be legalized. You have to witness firsthand the destruction that Crystal Meth and Cocaine wrecks upon families; we may have a right to decide our own behavior, but when that behavior is detrimental to the family unit in countless documented ways, that behavior cannot be allowed to continue.
The war on drugs can be fought and won. We need to change our tactics, and get the families that are making billions off the drug "War" out of the business. Hs anybody every thought: Where are the countless billions of dollars going that are generated through the illegal drug trade? It is hidden well, in fact, almost beyond comprehension, but follow the money trail. The "real" culprits may eventually surprise us all!
http://justanothercoverup.myblogsite.com
Again, I have been involved in the War on Drugs, from both sides.
While I agree that Marijuana should be decriminalized, I vehemently disagree that ALL drugs should be legalized. You have to witness firsthand the destruction that Crystal Meth and Cocaine wrecks upon families; we may have a right to decide our own behavior, but when that behavior is detrimental to the family unit in countless documented ways, that behavior cannot be allowed to continue.
The war on drugs can be fought and won. We need to change our tactics, and get the families that are making billions off the drug "War" out of the business. Hs anybody every thought: Where are the countless billions of dollars going that are generated through the illegal drug trade? It is hidden well, in fact, almost beyond comprehension, but follow the money trail. The "real" culprits may eventually surprise us all!
http://justanothercoverup.myblogsite.com
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