LEO training include aggressive BG's?

[Penforhire]

Taking a tangent from the current "Hollywood Shootout on FX" thread. I'm wondering how much LEO training is devoted to handling aggressive BG's who really don't care who they kill?

I used to own a paintball company and we provided equipment and facilities for training exercises to SWAT, Sheriff, and nuclear power plant private security forces in Northern CA.

One of the things we noticed was every single group was initially unprepared for an attack. They ALL assumed the BG's would hole up and take some form of defensive stand. Any assertive BG who did not care for his own safety could engage them while they were diddling with their mirrors-on-sticks and yakking on the radios. This had nothing to do with the use of paintball equipment (although one SWAT captain had an AD in our lobby, which I assume his team will never let him forget). It was more about the focus of the responders.

Once they arrived and began setting up a perimeter they sort of slacked off behind cover. After the paint was sprayed I heard a lot of "well, I thought YOU were covering that corrodor."

After a few disastrous encounters the team got much better at maintaining their defensive focus. I know that's the point of training and in these cases I think it worked well. But I was disappointed by their initial lack of preparation for an offensive scenario, considering this paintball training was more of a break-in-rountine-training for these already-working teams.

Oh, it was also big fun playing a hostage, terrorist, or other BG for these teams to train on.

Any thoughts or LEO responders?

 

[Dave Williams]

Penforhire,

Very little of my on the job training has focused on BGs like that.

Police rely on/expect people to obey commands to a certain extent, and many are unprepared for that one guy who doesn't obey.

Paintball is basically force on force training, and my dept does not provide any for patrol, only for our SWAT unit in the form of Simunitions. I've been wanting to get into paintball, especially after reading some "lessons learned in paintball" threads.

I read about departments with things like patrol rifles/good training and drool.

Dave

 

[Erik]

"I'm wondering how much LEO training is devoted to handling aggressive BG's who really don't care who they kill?"

Very little, if any.

 

[Gomez]

Tony Blauer wrote an excellant article on this topic years ago. It's called "Presumed Compliance". It should be available in the archives on his site (www.tonyblauer.com). Definitely worth reading.

To answer your question, from my own experience going through one civillian law enforcement academy and one Military Police (95B) training program, nowhere near enough. When I was "being a good badguy"during DT none of the students and ,scarily, very few of the instructors initially knew how to respond.

 

[LawDog]

From Day One in the Academy, American Law Enforcement is taught two significant mantras: "the minimum force necessary" and "Lethal Force is the last option".
Over and over again.

Add in a command structure that has a honest-to-God phobia concerning lawsuits, plus an absolute genius for the ancient game of CYA. Which is kind of understandable, considering the sheer amount of lawyers produced by society every year, most of which absolutely drool over a police-involved fatality.

Throw in your Media, which is guaranteed to throw a "Shoot-first, ask questions later" spin on the news story concerning your training, which leads to...

...your mayors, council-critters, commissioners and high sheriffs, all of whom rely on the Voters to keep their jobs, said Voters maybe getting a trifle antsy about the stories concerning training cops to be trigger-happy, and thinking that maybe the guy opposing the incumbent in the next election might rein back the "Rambo wannabes" in the local Law Enforcement department.

*sigh*

So, instead of simunitions training, the officers wind up with the much-more-voter-friendly 16 hours of Cultural Diversity, and won't-lead-to-a-60 minutes-segment 8-hour Sensitivity Seminars.

LawDog

 

[Doc]

I have been a participant and an observer for LEO SRT or SWAT training. The BG's were lame. I have offered my services as BG to several agencies including the NSA, USPS SRT, INS: Border Patrol and the local multi city SWAT.

All, READ EACH AND EVERY, entity failed to even respond to my letters

It is now my considered opinion that anyone who proposes ANYTHING which did not already occur to the C O, or cannot be attributed to the C O, and which might pose a risk of making the squad look bad is beyond the pale...

 

[mercop]

As a SWAT guy we train WCS Worst Case Scenario. Patrol people do not like to train that way and they cry to the bosses. Just like in the movie Heat, the guy with Born to Lose tattooed on his chest is not the one we train for, it is the professional or nut who is will to trade his life for yours. You can buy all the hardware (guns) but if you don't have the software (training and mindset) it won't mean sh*t.

 

[BowStreetRunner]

A cop I interned with told me that when she went to the Ohio State Patrol school for some training they did a mock traffic stop where the suspect lept from the car immediately and ran firing at the officer.....said it spooked her good and she would have been dead......at least the OSP is thinking about it in their own highway related way
BSR

 

[Penforhire]

Erick, I am mostly thinking of situations where teamwork and training mean more than the mindset of which you speak. I totally agree there are reliable people when SHTF and then there's everyone else. And there's no way to know for certain until after at least a little SHTF.

Traffic stops are just the scariest thing I can imagine the average officer has to face. Other than waving people out of their cars at gunpoint from a distance, I see no way to totally avoid bad surprises. I myself probably would not object to being 'remotely' asked to leave my vehicle when stopped, expecially since the alternative may be a very nervous encounter.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Without the proper mindset, all the teamwork & training don't amount to much. The teammembers with the proper mindset carry those that don't posses it, regardless of the level of training.

 

[Urban Warrior]

I agree with Mercop's thought's.

As a fellow SWAT member, we train for this all the time. You must!

Not everyone will be compliant, I'd say less then 5% give us any trouble on situations. But we're prepared for it.......UW

 

[Doc]

PenForHire said it best:

Traffic stops are just the scariest thing I can imagine the average officer has to face.

Dave Williams comment reflects the majority of PATROL training:

Very little of my on the job training has focused on BGs like that.

and MerCop reflects the appropriate way for SWAT to train:

As a SWAT guy we train WCS Worst Case Scenario.

IMO
ALL SWAT should be trained as MerCop points outnot just LAPD...


'...if someone has a gun to my wife or kid's head,
I want someone with the will and the skill, not just some punk, pogue...'
Clint Smith 60 Minutes II
in answer to the question/statement that
not every city like Pumphandle AL needs a SWAT sniper

 

[sw442642]

Interesting topic. I did a FOF where I had to be a pedestrian walking down the street. When I came around the corner, the two instructors just opened up on me.

While this isn't scientific, I've notice on COPS uhoh: ) when they do a raid, they are tremendous vulnerable if someone attacked them with any sense. I remember a set of guys pounding on a door in front of a plain old window. Anyone inside had a fine shot at three people.

 

[4 eyed six shooter]

Most departments fall way short in this type of training. You get your smarts by working the street, reading and training with your fellow officers in your spare time. In addition to range training, we used to play a what if game in our heads. Thinking how you would react in differant situations. This proved helpful more than once in encounters on the street. You will react the way you train and train you must. My mindset was that there is no such thing as second place. You must always win. I did what I had to do to go home at night. I have been retired for ten years and thing are different now. Much more liability and people with cameras. Still, it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
After a shift, ask yourself how many people could have had me tonight. If you do this after every shift, you will be better prepared when the SHTF. I found that when things went really bad, it usually happened with very little warning. This is where your training and mental conditioning will save your butt.
I don't know if I would want to be a LEO in todays enviroment.
Be safe lawdogs, John K